WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:55.000 Some surrogacy stories don't end when the baby goes home. The bond between a surrogate and the family she carried for can carry on for years, folded into birthdays and holidays and the ordinary rhythm of two families staying close. And for some women, one journey is the whole story because their own bodies close that door afterward. What a woman is left with when it's all behind her, the relationships and the memories and the meaning, is its own part of the experience. This is one of those stories told by the women who lived it. Hey, welcome to the Surrogate series. I'm Eloise Drain. Really glad you're here. My guest today is Rachel. Rachel is a wife and a mom to two teenage daughters. She's a realtor and a previous surrogate who carried twins for a couple local to her. She knew she wanted to pursue surrogacy long before she had her own children after watching close friends struggle to build their family. Rachel, thank you so much for joining me. 2 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.000 Thank you for having me. 3 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:06.000 So you've said you knew you wanted to do this before you even had your own kids. So what was that thing that planted that seed for you? 4 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:28.000 After I had had my own daughter, my first daughter, and while I was pregnant with my second is when I met a woman who had just been a surrogate and I was like, oh my gosh, I want to do that. And So I played 200 questions, not 20 with her and asked her all the questions. And that's what kind of led me down the path eventually. 5 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.000 How did the conversation go with your husband? 6 00:01:30.000 --> 00:02:05.000 At first, obviously he was like, I don't know, you know, that's risky. Obviously, you know, I'm his wife and we have kids together. And so he was worried about, you know, just all the things that could go wrong. But then I said, you know, well, it is something I would be compensated for financially. And he said, well, what does that even pay? And when I gave him a ballpark figure, he said, yeah, I think we could entertain. So that's kind of how that conversation went. 7 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Do you remember the girls reactions when you shared it with them? 8 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:45.000 You know, they were really little. I mean, Lucy, my youngest, she was a year when I reached out to, to you. And because I knew at that point we were done. And so that's when I started kind of pursuing it. And I kept getting declined from multiple agencies. And as you know, the application progress process is not just let me fill out this five minute application and hope for the best. It's really in depth obviously. And so I kept doing that and kept getting automatic denials. And finally. 9 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Do you want to share why you kept getting denials? 10 00:02:47.000 --> 00:03:06.000 Yeah. So finally I reached out with it because I didn't know. And after doing, you know, several, I. I finally was like, what. What's wrong? Why am I being denied? And someone from another agency said, you are selecting no for selective reduction. 11 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.000 And. 12 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:47.000 And your willingness to terminate should there be a genetic, you know, issue with the child. And. And I understood, but also, the world is made up of a lot of gray. It's not all black and white. And so I knew that there was nuance to what I was clicking. It's not a simple yes or no. And so that's what led me into finding you. And you said, yeah, I'll absolutely work with you. However, just know it may take you, you know, a little bit longer to get matched with a couple. I don't think I realized just how long it was going to take, but. But, you know, we got there eventually, so why. 13 00:03:47.000 --> 00:04:01.000 So I. I know you. You've heard about it, you've talked about it, you've considered it, but was there a defining moment that was like, okay, now I'm ready to. To choose to become a surrogate? What was that for you? 14 00:04:01.000 --> 00:05:45.000 Yeah, you know, honestly, like I said, meeting that woman, I don't know her name, um, I just was working retail part time and, you know, in the evenings to kind of get away from my own kids and just to have a little bit of adult time, and having that conversation with her, it kind of made it real and attainable because, you know, it's something that I think there's. So, at least at the time, I mean, this is obviously, you know, let's see, my youngest was a year old and my oldest was only four when I started pursuing it all. And so I at the time thought, this is something that is kind of an underground thing. I didn't know anyone who had ever done it. And so meeting her kind of brought it to life and was like, okay, this is a real possibility for a real person. And, you know, it's. I wasn't looking just to make money on it. I really genuinely, by that point, I had had several friends go through fertility problems and watching them struggle, you know, people who really want to have a baby and are ready and prepared and watching them, you know, spend all their money and the stress and the, you know, the strain it puts on their marriage, it's just. It was a lot. And so, you know, that's what made me want to do it. And, like, I said, speaking to her at the time, I was actually pregnant with my youngest. And so, you know, obviously it wasn't ready to start then I was about six months pregnant with her. But by the time she was a year old, like I said, I knew, we're not doing this again for us. We are done having babies. And so I just felt like, okay, well, you know, you know, I'm still young enough. What better time than now to start pursuing it? 15 00:05:45.000 --> 00:06:04.000 So when you decided, okay, I am ready to pursue it, did you start envisioning, like, the kind of parents that you wanted to work with or what you were hoping for in this journey, or was it just like, I really don't know, and I just kind of just jumped right in? 16 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:44.000 Yeah, the latter. I really didn't know what to expect. I didn't know. I didn't know what kind of people pursued a surrogate. I didn't know what the relationship would look like afterwards. And I was really kind of just open to any of it. I just figured, let's. Let's start the process and see where it takes us. And because I really was okay with a relationship or no relationship, I was okay with, you know, a straight couple, a gay couple, interracial. It did. None of that mattered to me. I just wanted to help a couple that, you know, was looking to have a baby and start their own family. 17 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.000 But you did still have a caveat to where you drew the line. 18 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:50.000 I did. 19 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.000 And that was for termination. 20 00:06:53.000 --> 00:09:10.000 Yeah. And. And so, you know, obviously, as you were well aware, I'm a reasonable person, and I understand that these parents are going to be the one that are going. They're going to be the ones that are going to have to take care of this baby, and so they're going to have the lifelong effects of whatever the outcome. However, it's my body, and I have to answer for what I do with it. And I have to guide, you know, be guided by. Own my own moral compass. And so for me, you know, down syndrome, I know that there are varying degrees, but that was something for me that was just. It wasn't something that I would have felt comfortable with. It was something that would have really, really bothered me. I had no issues knowing that I was going to carry life for someone else and give the baby away in air quotes, because that's what a lot of people always ask is how was that to, you know, give the baby away? I didn't give the baby away. They weren't mine. And they went to their parents who loved them, and had been anticipating their arrival. So it's, it wasn't like that. But you know, for me it was the. I have a niece who, long story short, was perfectly healthy pregnancy. And she was fine upon delivery and a couple of weeks later she stopped breathing. And my brother in law was able to, you know, perform CPR until prayer got there. But long story short, she ended up with cerebral palsy and she lived to be 18, she had a trach, she was bed bound. And my thing is, how could you ever known that that was what was going to happen when you had this perfectly healthy pregnancy? So you don't get to choose what life is going to hand you. And I get that there are certain things that when there is, you know, next to no chance at life, obviously I would be willing to terminate for that because it's, it's a financial strain, it's an emotional strain. So of course I was reasonable to be willing to, you know, terminate a pregnancy like that, but for something that just isn't perfect, I couldn't do it. And like I said, you never know what life's going to give you anyway, so 21 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:34.000 that's for sure. Yeah, so we, you alluded to it, but now let's talk about it. So you were matched a total of three times, and the first two times didn't go as planned. Do you want to talk about what happened with each of the first two times that you were matched? 22 00:09:34.000 --> 00:13:51.000 Sure. So the first couple, fabulous couple, very, very sweet. She had already had children herself and had remarried and he didn't have children and they wanted to have a baby together. And going through the process, you know, as you're well aware, there are a lot of different methods of hormone treatment. And so, you know, sometimes there's shots and sometimes there's creams and there's suppositories and there's pills and there's all these different options available and all of them come with a different price tag. The protocol that the fertility clinic had recommended for them. I obviously don't know what any of that cost them, but I know that we did a transfer and we transferred one embryo because she had already had twins herself and was not interested in that life again. So we transferred one embryo. Initially, everything was fine. On my next blood test, where the numbers were supposed to have duplicated, they had gone down. So we knew that I was miscarrying. So they had me stop all the medication. And about a week later, the couple reached out and just said, you know, we were really, really sorry. We appreciate what you've been willing to do for us. However, this is much more of a financial strain than we had anticipated, being it costs a lot more than we thought it would. But we were in a legal contract. They said, you know, we're. We'll release you from the contract so that you can get matched with another couple. So we did went on to get matched with another couple. I'll make this one really short in saying that it just didn't work out. Things didn't work out for them. And it ended up coming to light after the fact that some things had not gone as anticipated in their life and they were no longer going to pursue surrogacy. So at that point was when I really started thinking, am I going down the wrong path? This is what's really meant for me. I, of course, voiced all of that to you, and you reassured me. And then shortly thereafter, I mean, I think a couple of weeks, you reached out and you said, I have a couple that I think is a really good match for you. It just so happened that because, you know, you and I don't live close by, they just so happen to be local. To me, that was kind of a blessing that they were close by and could be involved in the pregnancy. And I will say the blessing of all of that is that the very first couple that we matched with, with, we went to dinner and she and I pushed food around our plate for an hour and a half while we talked. And we were so nervous. And, I mean, it was the most awkward first date you can imagine, so we were super nervous. And then after the whole second couple debacle, when it finally came to the couple that I ended up, you know, eventually being matched with, we were so comfortable and casual. Dinner was no big deal. It really, really took all the butterflies out of it. So. But we do. We have gone because we are still in contact. Spoiler alert. But we've joked since then that it's basically the equivalent of going on a first date with someone and saying, how much money do you have in your bank account? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? You know, give me all of your personal details of your whole life, because it really is. You know, I get asked a lot of times if it was a family member or a friend, and kudos to those that do that. That would not be something that I would choose to do because it is so personal, and there's so many things that you have to get in the weeds about that might strike a chord with someone and, you know, might make you on opposing Ends of something. So, you know, doing it for a stranger was definitely where my preference was, but it was definitely a relationship that started as a business transaction, as cold as that sounds. But it evolved into a friendship. I'm sure you've got more questions, but there's. There's more on that that I'll touch on that later. But, yeah, no, I think that that was a really good way of starting it. 23 00:13:51.000 --> 00:14:29.000 Yeah. Well, you know, I think, too, that it's normal to. To go into something and be nervous about the unknowns. I mean, we all go into things and nervous about the unknowns, but especially when it comes to this place where you're going to be in the most intimate spaces with someone, like a literally. A complete stranger who is literally going to be in some very, very intimate spaces with you and seeing parts of your body that is just like, oh, yeah. 24 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.000 I mean, yeah, I wasn't planning on 25 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.000 sharing that with everybody, but here we are. 26 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Here we are. 27 00:14:37.000 --> 00:15:14.000 So. Yeah. And then, you know, having to meet them and all of that. And truth be told, I mean, since after Covid, things changed. We used to have it where everybody would meet, and now it's like, well, we'll do the virtual call, and some people meet and some people don't. I mean, you know, it's just up to them. But I always still love the idea of, you know, meeting in person, because video was one thing. Meeting somebody in person to be able to see body language and everything else is a totally different story. 28 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:15.000 Right. 29 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:32.000 And for me, these women who have said, well, I've never met my intended parents. I've only spoken to them, you know, a couple of times, and then they were there at the hospital to pick up the baby. I'm like, me, personally, I can't do that. 30 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:54.000 That would be. I don't think I could do that. That would be really hard. That would be weird because there is. There's a lot that you get. There's a lot that you get in person. And, you know, the reality is you get a lot more time in person than you do on a video call. So I think you just get to get more of what a person's full sense is. 31 00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Yeah, for sure. So as you were going through the process, obviously you had to, like, restart three times. And I know you and I would converse often and all of that, and you were getting discouraged. But there had to be something, though, still that kept you coming back and saying, okay, I'm going to hold on because I want to continue doing this. 32 00:16:18.000 --> 00:17:35.000 Yeah. I mean, just like I said, you know, watching, watching our friends go through multiple losses and draining their bank accounts and, you know, it was just really, I don't know. And again, I, I didn't do it for a friend. So, you know, people always say I was so selfless. And it wasn't, it was self serving. I did get compensated for it, as I feel like people should be compensated for it. So I don't have any issues around saying that. I don't know, I just wanted to be able to help in whatever way I could. Good to. You know, there are people out there who, you know, they have sex once and they get pregnant and you know, and then there's these couples that are, you know, they're kind of aging out of parenthood really, and, and they want to have a baby, they want to start their own family and they're throwing, you know, thousands and thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars at this process. And so, you know, I just wanted to, if I can help in some way. Now, there are certain things, like for me personally, egg donation was never something that I would have been okay with, but I'm so thankful for those that can do it. I think that every, everyone has their role to play, and this was just the part that I could play. 33 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:46.000 So you did with three families. So you had to kind of go to three different clinics. How was that experience like going through the screening over and over again? 34 00:17:46.000 --> 00:19:14.000 Well, you know, I think it's come in handy, especially now that I'm perimenopausal. I get to say, no, I am certifiably not crazy because I've had a lot of psychological evaluations to confirm that. So it, you know, it's just a lot of repetitive redundancy of answering the same questions. And, you know, because, you know, you have the initial call with them, the way you're answering the questions for them. And then in my case, they wanted to have a second call and, you know, just to reiterate that they would be able to make choices. And then once we all felt good about that, you know, it was okay. Well, now we're on to the psych eval and, you know, I had to go in my husband and the intended parents and we all had to have, you know, our individual sessions and then all together. But yeah, so it was, it was a process for sure. I mean, there's, there's, I guess if you have any kind of cold feet, there's plenty of opportunity to turn around and walk out the door. But so you really have to be committed to the process and know that it's what you want to do. Yes, but I didn't mind. I didn't mind the process because, again, like, it's, you know, it's a couple hours to go have this meeting and say, yes, I'm happy to help this family. And so it's a small inconvenience for me, but it helps them, so it was worth it. 35 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:24.000 So along the way, obviously, you're doing this, and it just keeps being repetitive. How is your husband in all of it? Because he has to tag along. 36 00:19:24.000 --> 00:20:22.000 Yeah, he actually. I will say I. You know, because every fertility clinic handles things differently. And so the clinic that we ended up working with in our town was. They were maybe a little bit more involved. So it worked out well because he was here to be able to do that. But the other clinic that I had worked with was out of state, and he wasn't there for that, and they didn't require that. So he really was kind of okay with all of it, I guess, you know, mainly initially. Obviously, as things, you know, as my belly grew, different concerns came about. But as far as the preliminary stuff, he was. He was really okay with, you know, he was okay with all of it. He was okay with the dinners, and, you know, we would get in the car afterwards, and of course he'd laugh and be like, it's so awkward. But it kind of. It has to be, you know. 37 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Yep, it does. But eventually, you just get into a comfortability. 38 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.000 So. 39 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:47.000 But let's talk about kind of the whole process. You went through screening and all the things, and then you have a transfer. How did that go? And what was the plan for the transfer? 40 00:20:47.000 --> 00:28:43.000 So they had, you know, left their samples, and I went in and, you know, I had to. Obviously, all the medication protocol, you're, you know, I couldn't. You couldn't pay me to remember what it all was now, but I just know it was, you know, you've got to do all your stuff for a certain amount of time. I do remember the very first time I had to give myself a Lupron shot, which, looking back, is so silly because it's the babiest shot of anything. And so standing in the bathroom, it was, okay, 1, 2, 3. Okay, okay. This time for real. 1, 2, 3. Over and over and over. And I finally did it. I was like, oh, my gosh, that was nothing. But so, you know, obviously, the process to get your meds all right up to transfer day. And by that point, like, so with the couple that I actually ended up caring for successfully, she had gone through a few rounds of IVF herself and they were unsuccessful. They had. That's a long story and her own to tell, but they had gone through a live retrieval process with a donor and other people, a shared retrieval process where multiple people are waiting on one person's eggs and trying to sync periods up and all of that. So it's a really long, drawn out process. And it took a year to finally get to the point where they could do the retrieval. And in doing the retrieval, there weren't enough for everyone, but they were the first ones in, so they actually got all the eggs. So but they had tried with, you know, that multiple times and failed. After their second failed attempt, they had two embryos left. And they said, well, the doctor said, let's want to change your protocol and keep moving forward. And she said, well, why. Why don't we check and make sure that this is something I actually can do, that my body is responding to all of this. And they did a mock cycle for her and found out she was not eligible to carry. And so kind of the four embryos have been a waste. And so when it got to me, they obviously have been a little bit, you know, a little bit gun shy. And so they said, we want to start with a mock cycle just to make sure, because you've miscarried before, so we just want to make sure that you can carry. So I started with a mock cycle and everything came back good for that. So immediately we went straight into another cycle, a life cycle, and we did that transfer and it failed. Nothing, like nothing ever took at all. So which was honestly better for me mentally, the first. The first one was really hard with the first couple. So when I, you know, this one didn't take at all. I guess it kind of took the pressure off of me a little bit. But then. So then we went straight into another. Another cycle. And so we did the transfer in December. And, you know, you wait. Oh, I forget how long now. Week? Two weeks? Two weeks. And you can't do pregnancy tests. You shouldn't. And all of that. And so had been. I went to do my blood work, and my blood work was. They called me the next day and they said, we got your numbers back. And I knew that they wanted it to be at least 120 is what they had told me at the time. And she said, it's 425. And I said, 468 is what it was. And I said, did you say 168? And she said, no, 468. And we had transferred two embryos. And I was like, okay, that's high. Is that supposed to be that high? And she said, that's good. That's good. It means your body's doing what it needs to do. So we're gonna recheck in a couple of days, and we want to see that number double. And I redid the numbers, and it's been years now, but I want to say it was 16. Something was like, how many are in there? Are there five in there? What's happened? And the gremlins. And she said, no, no, no, it has. It really has no bearing on anything. It just means that your body is responding well, everything's to going. Going as it should. And so at that point, we were just waiting until we had an ultrasound. And we were scheduled for an ultrasound, I believe January 3rd and January 1st, New Year's Day. We had ze and got up. We were coming home on New Year's, and I just didn't feel good and went to get in the car. And as soon as I sat down, I could feel. Feel a gush. And it's gonna make me cry now. Immediately, it was just heartbreak. It was horrible because it was like, here we go again. And it's so hard not to feel like my body failed, like I failed. I did something wrong, and it's not working because of this, because of me. And so I went inside, checked, sure enough was bleeding, and I was having horrific stomach pains, and called the fertility clinic, and they were fabulous, fabulous, fabulous fertility clinic. And they said, you know, go home, relax, take it easy, put your feet up. We're closed for the day. We'll see you in tomorrow, first thing in the morning for an ultrasound. And, you know, just don't think the worst case. Keep a positive mindset. And so, you know, obviously had called the intended parents already and told them, and they met me for the ultrasound the next morning. And we go in the room and, you know, as you were saying earlier, it was transvaginal. And, you know, dad's in there. And at that point, it was like, well, whatever is what it is. And so they're doing the ultrasound. And I, who had two kids previously, know what an ultrasound looks like and kind of what I'm looking for. And so I could see that there were two. Two embryos in there. They are, I guess, fetuses at that point. But so he's, you know, measuring everything, doing all this medical stuff. And he said, you know, so this is very common, you know, when you've Got, you know, egg sacs in there, and they're jockeying for space. You know, sometimes, you know, a. Basically like a blood blister can form behind the sac. And sometimes as, you know, the baby grows, it can grow and expand and pop that blood sack, that sac, and that's the gush of blood that you felt. And they said, so what does this mean? And he said, oh, sorry, you're having twins. Which I had already seen. But he said, everything's good, and we got to hear their heartbeats and everything was. Was good with them. He said, as a precautionary, I had been on for that protocol. I had been doing estrogen pills and progesterone suppositories. And he said, I think just as a precautionary measure, he said, I do believe that was implantation, you know, and then just growing, but let's be sure. And we're going to add some progesterone in. And so I had to do progesterone shots for a few weeks, which was not pleasant, I won't lie. Excuse me. And here we are, I guess, almost 12 years after those injections, and I do still have a spot on my hip that I call my shot spot that is still numb and painful, but, you know, worth worth it. But. So they were fine, and I did the extra progesterone shots, and then we were off to the races. 41 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:51.000 So. But now with twins, I mean, what was that like? Because that wasn't necessarily the plan. 42 00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:35.000 It wasn't. I mean, we had. They had transferred two embryos, so we knew this was a possibility. But, you know, I'm in Florida and it's hot, and I've joked about it a lot since that I don't know what we were thinking. Obviously, weren't doing a transfer in December meant I was going to be due in August with twins, and I'm five foot one, so there's not a lot of room, not a lot of room for twins. So it was. It. It was. I don't even know the word for it. It was an awakening. Yeah. It was like, oh. Oh, this is for real. We're really doing this. So it was. It was surreal. 43 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:42.000 How was the pregnancy itself, though? Because it's one thing to carry a singleton, but it's a whole nother thing to carry twins. 44 00:29:42.000 --> 00:32:22.000 So if I'm being honest. Okay. So the only downside I could think of in the beginning is I was very nauseous. I was. I was sick a lot with my own. My oldest. I was sick off and on up until about seven months, but it was nothing horrible. Like, very manageable. It was. It was not bad. I wasn't sick every day. I didn't feel nauseous, but. And then with my younger daughter, I think I got sick twice. And it was at like week 14. So randomly out of the first trimester with the twins, I was sick constantly. It's like, we got the test and the next day I was, you know, waking up in the morning, running to the bathroom, and I was sick all the time. My daughter, my youngest daughter's birthday is in February. She was opening her presents on her birthday, and she said I was throwing up. And she said, mommy, can you please stop throwing up so I can open my presents? She was turning 4, so no, you know, yeah, to her it's like, come on, get it together. But I will say, the way the doctors reacted when I was pregnant with my own daughter versus when I had the twins was night and day. When I told my daughter or my doctor with my daughter that I was feeling sick, he said, yeah, well, that means your body's doing what it needs to do. Congratulations, you're a mom. And with the twins, the fertility clinic was like, oh, my gosh, absolutely not. You should never have to be sick. And they gave me medication for that. It was dias. And it worked fabulously. I took it at night, and so it was time released. And so by. In the morning, I think it was B12 in there. And so by the morning time I would wake up, I wasn't sick and I felt good. I actually felt phenomenal. Maybe better than Pre pregnancy until 31 weeks. 31 weeks was when I was like, okay, I'm hot and my feet are swollen. But up to that point, I really. I really felt good. I had good energy. And, you know, initially I was nervous about going off of the hormones because that's scary because you think, okay, is my body going to do what it needs to do? And you just stop and hope for the best? And everything was working. And like I said, as soon as I stopped all the hormones and I was just. Just a pregnant lady, I felt great. I felt fabulous. But 31 weeks was when I was like, okay, this is. I'm over. This is. This is hot. And they're heavy. Kept going. Yeah. 45 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:26.000 How was the relationship with the parents during that time? 46 00:32:26.000 --> 00:33:20.000 Really good. You know, they're. They're really nice people. And she was really involved in everything. And, you know, obviously they didn't have kids. And so we felt maybe sometimes, like, when we. Because we would go to dinner as a family. We would have our girls there and everything. And we felt like maybe they were inconvenienced by our kids or just unfamiliar with how kids behave and that they don't always do we ask in a restaurant setting or whatever. But, you know, overall, they were really great. They were really. They were there for everything and nothing was awkward. We. We became friends. I mean, she invited me to the baby shower. Ironically, we showed up coordinating our outfits unplanned, which was really cute. 47 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:33.000 And so how was the whole. With your daughters, obviously seeing you, you know, getting bigger and bigger and just everyday life in general, because you still had to live life. 48 00:33:33.000 --> 00:37:12.000 Yes. So you had asked how they reacted, like, how did they handle it when I initially said I wanted to do it? Well, they were, you know, one in four. Four. So they were. They were little or one in five maybe. And it was really kind of foreign concept. But by the time I actually got pregnant, they were three and seven. And so, you know, my older daughter was in school, and I was very involved at her school. And so it made for a lot of really interesting conversations. And they were both fine with it. They understood what it was. And I had explained. Explain to them that, you know, some mommies, bellies just can't do what they need to do to be able to have a baby. And so, you know, we all have a purpose in this world, and sometimes we need to help others when they're not able to do things themselves. And so this is something that I'm going to do, and it's. It's just, you know, helping somebody else. But these are not our babies. They're not going to live with us. They're not going to look like us because they're not mommy and daddy's eggs. And so they were really, maybe too well adjusted to them not being for us. So my oldest, like I said, was in school, and one day I walked past, I was walking to the lunchroom, and by then I was showing. And a little girl turned around and she said, oh, you're. You're Sophia's mom. And I said, I am. And she said, so Sophia's going to have another. Another little baby, a brother or sister? And I said, well, no, no, these are. These are not for us. I said, I'm carrying these for another mommy. And she said, oh, so you're going to put him up for adoption? And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Don't. Don't tell anybody. That's not what it is. So it made for A lot of interesting conversations. And then my youngest, I mean, she would be, you know, I'd be going through the grocery store and she, you know, be on the iPad or the phone watching Elmo, and someone would say, you know, oh, are you so excited to be a big sister? And she'd say, they're not for us, not even looking up. And of course, that would ensue, like, okay, well, let me now explain to you my surrogacy process. So it made for some interesting conversations. But, you know, they, like I said, they knew the whole time that this was not something that was. You know, these weren't. What I had mentioned earlier that I said I would likely go back to is on the phone call with the couple. What would you like the relationship to look like to me? And I said, I'm really, you know, I would love to be involved, but I'm okay if that's not what you want. I understand that this is no one's desired path for starting a family, so I understand if it's a, you know, kind of a raw subject. So. But also, I would love to be involved if you're open to it. And the dad said, we have traveled all over the world and we've met amazing people everywhere, and we've made friendships for a lot less than this. So I can't say, see any reason why we wouldn't want to have you in our life forever. And again, it was like, okay, these are the people. For me, that's. I'm just a relationship, connections, person. And so that was really, really a big deal to me. So I. And I do. I still stand by. I would have been okay had they not been in my life. But it is nice being able to communicate with them. Just yesterday, the mom messaged me about a post she had seen online. And so we still keep in contact, and it's just. It is nice to still see them. And it is interesting as they get older, their reaction to it that I never really considered, I guess I don't know, but. But now they're old enough to start understanding it. 49 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:22.000 But, yeah, we're going to talk about that, too. Yes, we're going to talk about that, too. A lot to talk about. A lot to talk about. Why don't you share when you. At what year you actually did this? 50 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:32.000 So the twins were born in 2015, so they're August 13th. They'll be 11 this year. 51 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:56.000 So, yes, a long history here. So. But okay, so for the birth, obviously with twins, you never know what can happen. So how Was the birth for you? You know, what happened? Who was in the room? Did you go into spontaneous labor? Like, what happened? 52 00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:10.000 No, my body does not know how to do that. Apparently. It clings to pregnancy, so maybe a little too well. Actually, I carried 38 weeks to the day, which is full term. And 30. 53 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Wait, 38 weeks for twins. 54 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:13.000 For twins. 55 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:13.000 This. 56 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000 This. Full term, obviously. 57 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:16.000 Yeah. No, that's over. 58 00:38:16.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yeah. 40. 40. School for normal singleton, but for two, 38 weeks is max. And so my doctor had been my doctor. Both of my girls, I had. Had planned C s, or I had a deuce the first time in a C section with the second one, so knew I was going into a C section with the twins. I loved my doctor, and he was going to be on vacation when I was going to be delivering. And I pleaded with him and said, you cannot. You have to be there, because the mom was going to be in the room having a C section. Only one person's allowed in the room, at least at my hospital. And they would not budge on that. They would not let my husband in. And the mom told my doctor, I'm like, you have to be there for me. And he laughed and said, if I am physically in town, we don't know what our summer plans are yet, but if I'm physically in town, I will be there. And so he gave me his cell phone number in case anything happened that was unplanned. And. But then we ended up scheduling it. And he checked his schedule, and thankfully, his son was in a baseball camp or something that week, and so he was here. So he. Yeah, came in and delivered. He said, I'm gonna go drop the kid off at camp, and then I'll be back. And was in a Hawaiian shirt, but so it's very. It was very planned out. And so the mom was in the room because that's. I could have. I had the option to choose who I wanted in the room, but you got to be in the room for your babies as a mom. So my husband had already done that. So. And my doctor was there for me. That's the way I looked at it. So the twins were born, and they were 5, 7. Oh, no, sorry. 6, 7, and 5. 11. So over £12 a baby. They're very healthy. And no time in the nicu. They were perfectly healthy little bundles. And they actually left the hospital before I did. But there were some complications in my delivery. The placentas can grow roots, basically, and can grow into your uterine lining, and they don't always stop there. And they can continue growing and they can kill you. And thankfully, mine was not that. But upon delivery, they weren't detaching. And so he had to detach both of the placentas manually and then suture behind as we would remove. And I would start to hemorrhage and even suture, remove, suture, remove, suture. So I had asked for a tubal during my C section. I said, while you're in there, let's go ahead and solidify the deal. For me, even though I did have plans to do surrogacy again, I started getting sick and delivery, which is not great, laying on your back, vomiting. But the anesthesiologist was phenomenal. I whispered, I'm gonna puke. And she was Johnny on the spot. And they gave me medication, which made me really woozy. And at some point, I felt a real tightness in my chest. And I looked up, and I saw my doctor essentially elbow deep inside of my chest cavity, what it felt like. And I looked at the clock, and it had been an hour since they had been born. And I thought, that's too long. Something's going on. Afterwards, he came around and he sat down next to me, and he said, everything's good. You're okay. I mean, still in the or. And he said, everything's fine, but I will never sign off on this again. This isn't safe for you to do again. And I, you know, obviously, what. What can you say? Okay? And. But I didn't understand the severity of it right then. You know, the next. I don't know, that night or the next day or whatever, when he came in to do his rounds, he had said. He explained, you know, what had happened, or the other doctor did. Explained what happened and said, you know, that basically the fact that I had had three C sections now was a lot of scar tissue from that incision and then, you know, an incision from each of those placentas. So the chance of uterine rupture was just really, really high for another pregnancy. So it wasn't going to be an option to ever carry again, because you obviously have to get your OBGYN okay to do this. And so that was really tough. But, you know, again, what can you do? I wanted to be able to make the one. The, you know, one to make the decision, but that didn't happen. Like I said, the twins went home on a Saturday. I believe I went home on a Sunday. And as I was walking up the stairs, it felt like I was peeing my pants. And I went into the bathroom. And I was hemorrhaging, and it was the scariest thing ever. I mean, well, it's my husband's birthday that morning, so it was a. It was a gruesome scene. And I called him in the bathroom and he opened the door and could see straight ahead. And I said, happy birthday. I have to go to the hospital. And so we called my doctor because I had a cell phone, and he said, come straight to the er. And so we booked it down there and I had skipped over a part. So on Friday before his birthday, I'd gone to my two week checkup after having the babies, and I was a mess. I was emotionally. I was crying. I felt terrible. I felt like I had the flu and had been going on since, like, the second day after I had had them. And I would take my Percocet and my ibuprofen, like, I was prescribed. And an hour and a half later, I was dripping sweat and I would get a few minutes of relief and then it was back to feeling terrible again. 59 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000 Terrible as far as pain or terrible, I mean, obviously, I know it's physical pain, but was there also mental pain? 60 00:44:19.000 --> 00:46:20.000 No, it felt like I had the flu. It felt. And I. And I was still on the narcotics at that point, which, with both of mine, I was done by like three or four days, but post op, so. But here we were two weeks later and I was still getting. I was. I think I was on my third refill per cassette. And that alone doesn't make me feel. Well, they just make you feel, to me, gross. But. So I just felt like I had the flu. I felt so sick and just tired and I felt awful. I sat on the edge of the table and I was crying. And I told my doctor, I said, something is wrong. I really feel terrible. Terrible. I feel terrible. And he said. He came over and he grabbed my hand so nicely, and he said, I think. I think what you're feeling is missing the babies. I think this is taking more of a toll on you than you thought it would. And I said, that's not it, I promise. And so he said, okay, all right. If you think that that's not it, monitor your symptoms over the weekend and call me on Monday and we'll follow up. Sure enough, that was Sunday that I hemorrhaged. And when he came into the er, I said, I told you. I told you I didn't feel good. And thankfully, it ended up just being a really terrible infection. And I don't know what caused it or, you know, who knows? But I don't know if it was just the fact that the C section took so long, I don't know, but just a really bad infection. And so they had me admitted to the hospital. Hospital, I think I was in there for three days on IV antibiotics, and. And then they sent me home with two weeks worth of antibiotics. And so I was just taking all the medicine to try to get better. And obviously it worked. But in the process, it dried up all the milk, so no more milk supply. But that's okay. 61 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000 But, I mean, you did it for at least a couple of weeks, so. 62 00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:53.000 I did it for seven weeks, actually. Actually. But by the end, it was to the point where I would sit and pump for. You know, I would pump for 30 minutes or 45 minutes and just really, really, really try to get everything I could. And I was doing that, like, every three or four hours. And I would end the day with like, an ounce or two, and it was nothing. So it was totally futile. So the goal was eight weeks, and I made it to seven. So, yeah, well, yeah, something. 63 00:46:53.000 --> 00:47:09.000 How was the connection with the parents after. You know, obviously you're going through all this ordeal they have now, the babies at home. How was it, though? Were they checking on you? Did you speak to them? Did you hear from them? 64 00:47:09.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Yeah, yeah. Like I said, they kept in touch because obviously, like I said, I'd been pumping, so they had to come get the milk, which, you know, made for some funny moments in and of itself. The intended father's dad was an elderly man and wanted to help in whatever way he could. And so he said, well, I'll go get the milk. And he said, I, you know, I can do that. So one day he came to get the milk. And I mean, like I said, I had just a lot. I mean, bags and bags, and we were chatting by the door and. And I don't think he really knew how to leave without, you know, he didn't know what to say. And he was holding the bags of milk, and he said, well, you got a lot of milk here, little lady. So it was funny. I mean, and the whole pregnancy, they kept telling me how great my cervix was. And so, of course the dad was like, good job on that cervix. Thanks. I did it myself. I mean, yeah, right. It's just silly, but. So after I had them, obviously they were still coming for the milk and all of that, but they were still checking in. And I want to say, when that happened, I believe they brought us dinner. And so they were. They were really kind about everything. 65 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Yeah. And you are still close with them now. You guys still obviously speak and see each other and all of that. How's that been? 66 00:48:37.000 --> 00:50:45.000 Good. You know, we don't get to see each other a ton because life is busy for everybody. And even though they are local, they're still about 30 minutes away and they travel a lot and the kids are both in different things and activities and stuff. And so. And then obviously, you know, my family is. My girls are, you know, I've got one that's an adult and, you know, the other is a teenager. And so we're always going in different directions as well, so. But we do try to sync up at least once or twice a year to get together for dinner and like, my girls will come and my husband. And oftentimes we still get to see the twins grandmother and the dad's mom and then the moms, both of her parents. I have her mom on Facebook. We're still. We still keep in touch. I mean, we don't get together every Sunday for dinner or anything like that, but we're still active in each other's lives. And, you know, I. We follow each other on Instagram and I get to see the kids, you know, their first day of school and all of that. And every. Every birthday, I'm either we either get together with them or we do a FaceTime call. And so I get to see them and, you know, talk to them about what's going on in life. And so it's really cute. But like I said, as they've gotten older, I think it was their eighth birthday was when they had like, kind of their first, like, kid party. Everything else have been these small family parties. And so the first kind of kid party, one of the little girl came over and she had her friend with her and she said, this is the one I was telling you about. And her friend said, they really were in your belly. I said, they were. And she's. And the little girl said, see, I told you. And they ran away. And that was really my first, like, oh, gosh, yeah, they're going to get older. And like, is that going to be weird for them? It's not weird for me. And it's not like I said, they don't look like me, they don't look like my children. They're not my DNA. So for me, it's, you know, no big deal. But I don't know how that's going to be for them as they get older and if that's going to be interesting. 67 00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:16.000 Well, I think, though, when the parents are opened to their story and they normalize it, them growing up is really normal. Because my second sorrow, baby. Matter of fact, his mom just sent me a text message a couple weeks ago. He's getting ready to go into high school, and she sent me a picture. He won awards, and he does all these things and all this stuff. And she was like, you know, look at our boy. 68 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.000 Look at all of the things, you 69 00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:22.000 know, and he still calls me Auntie Elizabeth. 70 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.000 Oh, that's so sweet. 71 00:51:23.000 --> 00:52:01.000 And. And knows, you know, that I carried and, you know, sends me messages like my mother for Mother's Day and my birthday. And I, you know, always message him on his birthday and all the things. So it's like, you know, as long as the parents are truthful and share for them, it's no big deal. It's when you make it so simple, secretive that, you know, then everybody is just like, oh, you know, this. This. This is something bad because it was a secret. And, you know, so it's just like, if you're open about it and share about it. 72 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:18.000 Well, and I think, too, in the last. At least, you know, the last 10 years for sure, there's been a lot more discussion of it. And, you know, my kids watched Fuller House and on Fuller House, Kimmy was a surrogate for, you know, first or. 73 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:19.000 Yeah. 74 00:52:19.000 --> 00:54:56.000 Giving Stephanie. And so, you know, that again, kind of shined the light on what it is. And it's not weird. And, you know, when the. Like I said, the couple and I, we've laughed about it a million times over the years. They had met with someone that they found off of Craigslist before they met me because they were like, we didn't know how to go about it. And that was the only thing that we knew to do at the time. Time. And they said we went to dinner with her, and they were like. We didn't know what we were walking into. We thought, you know, is this somebody who, like, you know, lives at home with their mom, you know, the whole Mother's Basement thing. And, you know, it. Are they just doing this for money? And it just felt weird. And I guess she had a tattoo on her forearm. And she said, I can't remember what it was, but it was something like despair or something. And she was like. She said, I remember we got in the car afterwards and sat there just staring straight ahead, going, is this really what we're willing to do to have a family? And reevaluating everything? And so thank God for surrogacy. Agencies like you that make it a normal thing. It's normal people. It's not women just trying to get money. It's people who really want to help other families. And it's families, you know, people that are desperate to have a baby. And look, there are. There are so many ways to have a baby. And, you know, some people will say, you know, why don't you just adopt? Well, you know, that system is not without its flaws as well. That's a, you know, that's its own podcast. But, you know, there's a lot of issues with all of that. And so, you know, there's a lot of worries that come along with taking that path also. So to know, like, this is our baby, and to have someone saying, you know, in the end, it was, you know, I think at the end of the second call, it was, how can we be sure that you're not going to want to keep the baby? I said, I got a toddler in there that. I promise you I will pay you every dime back to make sure you take these babies. I don't want any more children. So it, you know, I love them. I always equate it to. It's like if your sister. I don't have a sister, but if your sister or your best friend or someone that you're really close with has a baby and that emotion that you feel. When I saw her see her babies for the first time, I felt nothing for me. I felt so much happiness for her. And it. I. It's. It's a. I don't know if that makes me heartless or, but. 75 00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.000 Or. 76 00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:58.000 Or just the right candidate. I don't know. But either way, I really. It was just really a happy moment for her and for the dad, not. And, you know, and for the grandparents and like all these, you know, there were so many years of loss for them. And so to have these, you know, to have a family now and their family was done. They had the two kids and they're happy and, you know, the kids are doing great and funny little personalities and, you know, very, very on brand with how they interacted in the womb. Even one was really calm and docile, and the other one never stopped moving, ever. And that is real life. They're almost at 11. They're still the same way. And it's just, you know, I'm just happy that I was able to. To help out with it. I forget sometimes that people don't know that I did it. And so when I say, you know, I've had four kids, people Are like. Like, no, no, it's not bad. Not. Nothing bad happened. Yeah. It was on purpose. Yeah. And they're alive and they're well, and they're with their parents, so it's all good. 77 00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:10.000 Yeah. But for you, though, I mean, even after your hospital ordeal, did you continue having problems? Did it stop? Did you get better? What happened? 78 00:56:10.000 --> 00:59:24.000 So I did not stop having problems. My periods got to the point where they were insufferable. I had had an IUD after my first daughter, and so I tried to get an IUD to try to help with things after that, and within an hour of having it, I was like, you have to get me back in. This has to come out. It felt like I was on fire. Then we did a pill to try to manage the periods. My periods were so painful, and. Which I had never really had painful periods before. I would have back pain, but not cramping or anything like that. And they were never overly heavy. And after having the twins, really, really, really heavy periods. And they would last 12 to 14 days every period. It was then, you know, hey, we're talking about surrogacy, so it's kind of gross stuff. So. But, you know, I would have a period for two weeks, and then at some point in the latter part of that period, I would get a yeast infection because of the pH balance being off. And so then I would have to be on yeast infection medication. And then, you know, it was like, one week out of the month where I felt normal. So after trying multiple birth control options to try to manage it, my doctor said, I think were probably looking at doing a hysterectomy. This is the part where I'll be very candid. I wish that I had known. Obviously, hindsight's 20 20. I wish I had known then what I know now. And, you know, the contract was written in a way that protects both parties. Right. So it's only fair that, you know, I forget what it is now because it's been so long, but it was, you know, if you carry to 30 weeks and then you deliver well, then you don't get paid the rest of the time because you're paid in installments. And so that's because then the intended parents are paying a lofty NICU bill. Yeah. And so it's written to benefit both parties and make everything fair. And the one thing that I don't think was fair and that I wish had been different was the amount of time after the surrogacy it covered me because, as you know, you are compensated for Loss of reproductive organs. And just my doctor saying, I will never sign off on this again doesn't qualify as losing your reproductive organs. So there's no compensation. And my contract was written to cover me for three months after I had the twins. And anyone who's ever had a pregnancy, or even a miscarriage for that matter, and not a full, full term pregnancy, knows three months is not enough time for your body to snap back into shape and know what it's doing. I mean, a lot of women don't even get a period for three months after they deliver because of nursing and all of that. So I really wish it had been at least six months. 79 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:35.000 And now insurance has drastically changed so that now that actually is the case where they have extended that. But, you know, 11, 12 years ago. 80 00:59:35.000 --> 01:02:45.000 Yeah. And so, you know, and insurance obviously is its own scam, but, you know, and obviously I incurred no medical bills with the twins. And because the parents paid all that, we did use my insurance. My insurance covered the surrogacy, but then they paid all the deductibles and co pays and all that. But I delivered them in August. And by the time we finally said, my doctor finally said, I think a hysterectomy is going to be the best route. It was December of 2016, so the Twins were over a year old. And I said, well, can we at least get it in this year, because I've met my deductible. And he said, I'm booked. And I said, okay. So we got it scheduled for February. At that appointment I had gone to, I said, you know, my periods are lasting forever. My husband and I were going out of town. I said, is there anything you can do? I had started my period that morning, of course, and I said, is there anything we can do to shorten this period? And he said, we're going to put you on birth control. We'll do three pills today, three tomorrow, three the next. Then we'll do two, two, two, and then go finish the package. Normal, and it should cut it down. 12 days is that period. And I was a raging lunatic because of all the hormones. So anyway, I think it was December 27th. They called me and said, we had a cancellation and we can get you in in two days. So I went in on the 29th and they did my. I had a partial hysterectomy. So I don't know why it still just invokes tears, like, because I know that I don't want to have any more kids. And now I'm well past the age to be able to do so. But I don't know, again, it's something about being able to choose that for yourself versus someone else. Choosing it is still. It's still a hard pill to swallow all these years later, ten years later. But I will say I love not having a period, so that's great. But. And, you know, now it's just, you know, I do still have my ovaries, so I do still ovulate, and I have two teen daughters in the house, so now it's anyone's guess as to when I'm actually losing it. So we never know when it is. So. But, you know, even so, the downside of that was a. I was not compensated for loss of reproductive organs, which isn't enough for what it was at the time. I don't know what it is now, but at the time it was not enough. I believe it was 5,000 if you lost everything and. Or your uterus. Yeah. So that I'm sure, is different now, but at the time, that's what it was. So not only did I get that, but I also incurred three $500 worth of medical bills from my insurance for my portion of everything after it was done. And, you know, the parents, it's neither here nor there. It wasn't their responsibility at that point because it wasn't contracted to be their responsibility. So I can't fault them in anything. And they did bring dinner and, you know, we're very supportive, but. But I still had to put the bill for it. So. 81 01:02:45.000 --> 01:03:36.000 Yeah. And the crazy thing is, I mean, if you remember, I also had to have a hysterectomy due to my last sur. Surrogacy pregnancy. And because it also didn't fall in line, I had to come out of pocket, same way. She was born in July. I ended up having a hysterectomy in June of the following year. And so had to pay the deductible, had to pay everything. And then, you know, trying to recover and all of this stuff. So. And I know, you know, things are drastically different now than they were, you know, when. I mean, I started my whole process in 2007, delivered my last thorough baby in 2014. 82 01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:38.000 And you were just right before me. 83 01:03:38.000 --> 01:05:05.000 Right. So, you know, had to literally kind of live the same kind of experience because I couldn't stop bleeding. And they did an endometrial ablation. Well, that didn't help. And it just kept prolonging the problem. They would give me something else or they would try something else or whatever, and it Got to a point where I was in so much pain and I wasn't even bleeding. I was just bleeding internally, and I was in so much pain, and they, you know, I mean, I remember one time I was at the office and I. I mean, the pain just came out of nowhere and it was so bad that I just literally hit the floor and couldn't even catch my breath to call somebody to be like, oh, my God, come help me. So I. I wholeheartedly get it. And, you know, and it just. It's crazy to see the. How surrogacy has evolved, you know, from 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, to even what it is right now. It's. It's wild to see, but it's also like the people who have done it previously, years ago, and all of the different experiences that you had to see, like, hey, we need to do better by women who are. Who are risking their lives here. I mean, because it was. Every time you get to have a pregnancy, regardless of whether it's for yourself 84 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:39.000 or somebody else, you're risking your life. Absolutely, absolutely. But we paved the way for change, you know, to be what it is now. And so for that, again, I just have to be thankful that I'm okay, you're okay. And now things are changing, and I do think it's becoming a more, you know, more talked about, more prevalent thing. And so, yes, I think, you know, as everything, it's evolving and there's more knowledge around making sure women are protected the way they should be. For sure doing it. 85 01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:45.000 Yep. Do you have any regrets? 86 01:05:45.000 --> 01:08:46.000 I don't think so, other than, I mean, as silly as that sounds, other than the contract to just, you know, being written, I wish I had advocated for myself more to say, because I had had two kids already and I knew. But also, you know, my pregnancies were pretty easy with both of mine. And I did. I was. I was younger, you know, I was in my 20s when I had them and in the 30s when I had the twins. And so, you know, I guess I just took for granted that my body would snap back the way it had before and then it would be no problem. So I wish I had advocated for myself more on the contract side of things, but otherwise, no, I feel. I feel at peace with it. I'm glad that I was able to, you know, help bring two little lives into the world and that, you know, I was able to, you know, the family, like I said, I carried for at the time, they had been trying, I think, for eight years to get pregnant. There had been a lot of miscarriages and a lot of heartbreak in that time. And just prior to that, she had lost a brother in a car accident. And so there was just a lot of grief and like, kind of like a dark cloud hanging over their family. And I remember, I remember the first time I met her mom. We, we met up at Starbucks, and she said, you know, I'll. The mom, the intended mom said, I'll go grab our drinks. I'll be right back. And so she went up and immediately her mom started crying and said, I just want to thank you so much for doing this. You have no idea what this means to our family. We, they had no grandkids. The intended father had a sibling and a sister who had no kids and didn't want them. And then, you know, for the intended mother, she had a brother, but he, at that point didn't have any kids. I think he got pregnant right before, right before I had the twins. But, you know, they just had kind of been stuck in this grief cycle for a really long time and all the sadness. And she started crying, and she, she grabbed my hands and she said, I just want to thank you, because I, I. There's no words that I can ever say to thank you for what you're doing for our family. And right then, the mom came back over and she said, mom, we talked about this. I told you not to do this to her. But, you know, I mean, look, at the end of the day, I'm human. It is nice to know that I'm appreciated for what I did. And so, you know, there's some things that are handled differently than what I would, but that's just my own expectation I'm putting on others, and that's not fair. So I feel good about it. I'm happy that I did it. And, you know, it's like I said, it's provided joy and happiness for their family. It has taught my own girls that doing acts of service for others is important, too. 87 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:55.000 For you, what do you think is the biggest misconception about surrogacy that you wish more people understood? 88 01:08:55.000 --> 01:11:06.000 Like I said earlier, I think that there's a misconception that people do it for money. You know, that it's, it's people who are desperate for money. And look, this is not a get rich quick scheme. There are normal people out there doing it and doing it for the right reasons. Now, that said, as I said before, it's worthy of being compensated for, and I don't have any shame in Saying that I gave up a lot of time with my family, going to doctor's appointments and being in a point where I physically couldn't do certain things for them, and my girls were little at the time. And, you know, so it's worthy of being compensated. But, yeah, it's not just people out there trying to, like, make a quick buck. I think it's just really genuine people who want to help other people. And, you know, I think another misconception is that. And maybe I'm misinformed, but from what I've learned over the years, I don't think most people are caring for a sister or a cousin or a best friend, because there are a lot of really tricky conversations that you have to have as or mentioned, you know, the selective reduction. And, okay, well, we want to transfer four embryos because we really want to increase our odds. But then what happens if, you know, to split and to take. And now, okay, you're, you know, you're coming up on being the next optimum, but we don't want that many, so let's just selectively reduce and eliminate those. And thankfully, obviously, the medical industry has come a long way with that as well, and that they're not doing that. Fertility doctors don't do that anymore. But, you know, I think personally starting as a business transaction and laying the foundation of this is what the expectation is. This is how we want things to go. And allowing a friendship to evolve, if it does, from there is. I think that that was the right way to go, and I don't have any regrets over that part of it. 89 01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:13.000 Yeah. So for a woman who's considering surrogacy, what do you want her to know before she starts? 90 01:11:13.000 --> 01:12:30.000 That there are going to be really high highs and there's going to be really low lows, and it's not. It's not a straight line from point A to point B, because it's just a lot that happens in between there. And. But if you're open and you're doing it to, you know, you keep your eye on the prize of helping another family, which is what you set out to do initially, then it all becomes worth it. And like I said, I do think it, you know, as a mom to my own girls, to show them, like, you know, doing what you can in the world, like, you know, I'm not a. I'm not a fertility doctor. I can't. I can't do what they do. I also, you know, for me personally, didn't feel comfortable donating eggs, so. But I'm thankful for those that do. And so everyone has their role to play in the world and whatever that may be, whether it's even just being supportive to someone going through it and not. Not asking invasive questions or, you know, unless I've always been an open book about it, so. Because I do want to try to take away some of the stigma and that, you know, I wasn't broke and destitute when we started the surgery process. 91 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:34.000 Yes. Because that's what legislators want to talk about all day long. 92 01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:35.000 That all women. 93 01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:38.000 Women who are surrogates are exploited. 94 01:12:38.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yes, it's. And that's the thing. It's not, you know, there. There are questions in your application pro process that kind of weed those people out, really, you know, to make sure that you are doing it for the right reasons, like I said, you know, and going through the. Through the psychological evaluations and therapy and all of that. But, you know, I think if you go into the right mindset of, you know, I'm going to help someone out, I'm going to be open, and everyone says, oh, you know, I would get too attached. That wasn't an issue for me. And if that's what your thought process is, then it's probably not for you. It's to each their own. But if I just never. I knew that it wasn't going to be something that was going to cause me turmoil emotionally over. I knew that once. Once I delivered and I was giving the babies to their rightful owners, that I was going to be okay with that. And I have been. It's never. I've never had any. Any, you know, oh, gosh, I wish I had. You know, I wish I had the babies. Absolutely not. 95 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:54.000 So, okay, well, final question. Can you speak on your experience working with family Inception? Yeah. 96 01:13:54.000 --> 01:16:26.000 You were fabulous. I loved working. I mean, truly, you were. Having you to commiserate with and to sympathize with me, you had done it yourself. You knew the process. You were always professional, but always real. And, you know, it was. We would have real candid conversations. But then when it came to matching, you know, it's no surprise that you're doing great at podcasting, because orchestrating the phone calls and being, you know, the. The moderator of it and going back and forth, I mean, it just always was. By the time I got matched with a couple, I knew, okay, this is the right fit, because Eloise has done the legwork to make sure that we're going to mesh well before we. Even before it's even mentioned to us. So I did there was just a great sense of like. Oh, gosh, what's the word? I don't know. A great sense of, like, synergy. Well, and being okay, like, I trust. Knowing that, like, you've been through the process, you can speak to the process. And then, you know, like we mentioned, as I was going through the circus, I'm pregnant with the twins, is when you had your hysterectomy. So then when it came, and it wasn't just done when I delivered, you've. You've stayed in contact and I mean, you know, little gifts here and there over the years of, you know, like something a surrogate appreciation gift, you know, that you wanted to do or a phone call or a text to just, you know, keep in touch and make sure everything's been okay. When I had the hysterectomy, you were there to, to give advice on that and speak to what your experience had been. So I've been, I've been very happy and I would absolutely recommend anybody to use you, because I think that, again, so many of these agencies are cut and dry. It's. It's. It's black and white. You will do this or you won't do it. You are okay with this or you're not, and, and you're just clicking these things and you become a black and white page and of answers. And you actually, actually took the time to get to know me and say, okay, like, this might take longer, but I have, I have faith that we can get you matched with the right couple. And we did. So it worked out for everyone. 97 01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:54.000 Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I do think that it is very important that no, you're. Again, you know, you're risking your life and you should have a, A good connection with your. The agency that you're working with and being able to have candid conversations and not feel like, well, I can't say that, or I can't, you know, whatever, and well, and you know me, I don't bite my tongue. 98 01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:58.000 That's why we get along, right? 99 01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:03.000 And here it is all these years later and, you know, just, well, last week we were on the phone for two hours. 100 01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:06.000 So what it is so. 101 01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:59.000 But yeah, I do think that that is important. And I, I also feel like there's a lot of change in this space. Some good for sure. You know, just even what we were talking about, your own experience and in the. The things that have gotten better for the ones that have come behind us, but also some that are bad. Um, you know, there's agencies popping up every single day. Um, and it's kind of scary because it's just like, okay, I mean, not that, you know, nobody has a right to, but at the same time, it's like the responsibility that you're about to take on and being an agency and having literally people's livelihoods in your hands, it's, it's, it's pretty big. 102 01:17:59.000 --> 01:20:30.000 You know, I think, too, that, you know, in. Through my process, I, I had people reach out, you know, because they were trying to get matched with someone outside of an agency because they didn't want to pay the agency fee. And while that's fine for them, that's what their own preference is. There is value in paying an agency fee, and it's more than just a finder's fee in connecting you. You are emotional support. You are real support in that. Again, there's a lot of layers to this. And you have. And we had what, a 63 page, legal binding contract, and I didn't have a lawyer. You were able to facilitate that and make sure that both sides had equal and fair representation. And it was not the same person representing us. And, you know, you were able to look over not only as someone representing the intended parents, but someone representing the surrogates and saying, okay, this is fair. You know, I'm looking over the contract and agreeing with all of that. You had the contact points of the different fertility clinics to use in the different areas and knew the reputations that they had and the different medical protocols like it. There's just a lot of really valuable knowledge that you were able to provide. And so it's worth the fee. It's not. It's not just a, you know, if for me personally, that is the one thing that I have told people who've asked me about it over the years. I always say, do not try to do it alone. Definitely go through an agency. And of course, you're the only person I would ever recommend, but. But no, I just to go through an agency to make sure that you're protected. Because at the end of the day, we all, you know, look, people have babies every other second in the world and they go fine, but sometimes things don't go as planned. And sometimes, you know, still in 20, 26, women die in childbirth. And, you know, so there is a risk associated with it, and you want to make sure that you've got, you know, got people on your side looking out for your best interest. 103 01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:44.000 Yeah, for sure. Well, Rachel, I appreciate you so much, and I am grateful that you decided to join on and, you know, talk about the good old days. 104 01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:56.000 Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Like I said, I've always been an open book and I'm happy to talk about it and hopefully help other people take the leap to do it themselves. 105 01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:23.000 Thanks so much for listening to Fertility Cafe. If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an interview. Leave us a review and connect with us on socials. We're at Fertility Cafe. You can also watch the full video version of today's conversation over on our YouTube channel. Until next time, remember, love has no limits. Neither should parenthood.