WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.000 It wasn't that he exactly lied. It was that in many cases he shares just enough of the truth to put a lie into the mind of a person who's listening to him. 2 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:32.000 When the abuse took place, he was her senior pastor and it was escalating. It was, you know, went from personal emails to intimate emails to erotic emails. Mike pressuring this woman, Kim, into not sleeping with her own husband, which shows a, a desire for possession. You know, you're mine. You don't belong to him, you belong to me. 3 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:36.000 That is, that is a direct assault upon the marriage. 4 00:00:36.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Yes. That's when Ray got a hold of me and he said, I have to defend my wife. One woman, Sarah Monk. She worked for him. She was a grad. She was like a family member and she loved Mike like a father. But then he took it to uh, what I would call a darker people saw that they were closer than a 46 year old, uh, man of God should be with a 20 year old student. She came there to be a disciple. She came there to be on fire for God. She left in September of 2002, broken. The only reason we're talking about this 23 years later is because of the COVID up. 5 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:16.000 She was for some reason rummaging through some of our drawers and found a note I'd written. 6 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.000 That is not what happened. 7 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:21.000 It's high level manipulation and lies. 8 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:33.000 His response to me was, quote, I did hear some crazy reports about six weeks ago with some wildly false charges. So right out of the gate he is lying to me. 9 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:46.000 Oh, it was more than you said. Oh, it was bigger than you said. Oh, it was worse than you said over and over again. Even 23 years down the road to cover up, what you have to do is you have to victimize victims more. That's the nature of COVID up. It always does that. 10 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:56.000 In order to cover it up, you have to continue to, to hurt people, to deceive people. And it becomes this, this web that you cannot get untangled. 11 00:01:56.000 --> 00:15:12.000 This video is going to give evidence and examples of Dr. Michael Brown, who I love and appreciate and who I've promoted over the years. Evidence and examples of him participating in cover up, manipulation and outright lies that continue to harm innocent people and avoid accountability for his past sins. This didn't need to happen. It's not just the past sin issues. It's the ongoing cover up that needs to be dealt with. I need to say several things before we get into the evidence. And you'll be getting a lot of evidence today on screen and in your ears. Number One. You may have heard bad stuff about me, Mike Winger. Um, I have a spirit of accusation, or I am the accuser of the brethren. Um, or fill in the blank Leviathan. Um, you can think that. But please at least look at the evidence of many witnesses, because that is the biblical standard. First Timothy 5, 1920 tells us not to receive an accusation against an elder unless it's brought by two or three witnesses. But the ones who are persisting in sin, you have to expose them in the presence of all. And there's a complete breakdown in this last part of the application of First Timothy 5. The frequent thing that goes on in Cover up culture is you simply don't receive accusations against leaders. Period. End of story. But when many witnesses come forward, when evidence, or even one witness with corroborating evidence, that's multiple witnesses comes forward, it's on the leadership in the local community, or if a person has a large online ministry, it's on the leadership in the online world and their board. If they neglect their role, which Michael Brown's board has been neglecting, his current board is neglecting his role, it's on our necks to follow 1 Timothy 5, 20 and say, okay, we have to let this rebuke be as big as the ministry. And. And so this video, number two, I love and appreciate Dr. Michael Brown still. Um, his series answering Jewish objections to Jesus and all the messianic apologetic stuff he's done is incredible. It is wonderful. Um, it will continue to bear fruit on into the future, and that's a wonderful thing and I'm happy for that. Um, it's still, still something I consider very important for us to have his cultural stance for topics that make other people shake in their boots. Um, his boldness in those things has been inspiring, and it has been solidly biblical and committed to Jesus Christ. He himself is inspiring. I used to listen to his podcast all the time, and I still would just feel uplifted when I hear him speak. Um, but there is another side to Dr. Michael Brown, and people can be complicated and they can have multiple sides to themselves. And unfortunately, uh, this is that other side. Now, some of you, number three, some of you may want to think, Mike, why aren't you doing Matthew 18? Well, again, I will say this is a first Timothy 5, 19, and 20 issue, not a Matthew 18 issue. This is not about personal offenses against me. This is about dealing openly with an open problem that's persistent and a leader with many witnesses. But Matthew 18, in the culture of COVID up, always stops at step two, right Step one, you go to him alone. Step two, you go to him with a leader or with another brother. And then step three, you tell it to the church that step, step three never happens with those who constantly quote Matthew 18 with no knowledge of the actual events. So I'm just saying before you quote Matthew 18, go read it again. We're in step three. Step two has happened. Step one has happened. It's step three now. And four, cover up culture is worse than you think it is going on. I've been interviewing witnesses for months, talking to people behind the scenes, a number of big ministries. Um, especially in the charismatic world, it's not only, not exclusively, but especially in the hyper charismatic side of COVID up culture is rampant and it's worse than you think it is. And dealing with examples of it like this one, even though this is not the worst example, but dealing with these examples will help to stop it. I think the next generation of leaders is going to see this video and they will be inspired to make sure this kind of thing can't happen again. All right, let's talk about how we got here. Between 2001 and 2002, Michael Brown had inappropriate relationships with two women. One of them, Sarah, was an assistant. She was 19 when this first started happening and he was in his 40s. Uh, we'll go over the details. They did not sleep together. It wasn't like that. But it was inappropriate, it was wrong. And you'll get a bunch of specific examples. Uh, the second one was a lady named Kim, at least we're calling her Kim. She's a married woman who was under his spiritual leadership, who he had an erotic relationship with. Not exactly an affair, um, erotic correspondence with, and that's what I would call it, that's my understanding of the terminology that I think is appropriate. You'll get tons of evidence, tons of details and then the abuse and the COVID up and it's bad stuff. Now what happened between these two women and Brown and the people around them at the time could have been recovered from 23 years ago, but it was never properly dealt with. Essential details remained hidden even from his board and from those who came to talk to him. And he began doing damage control 23 years ago and it's been ongoing ever since. I believe that since these things first happened, Dr. Brown is engaged in a 23 year long attempt to cover up what happened, adding further injury to those who he previously already hurt and adding more people to that list. And he has manipulated or deceived those who came to confront him or Ask for accountability or try to find out what really happened. He did not want this stuff to come out and he still doesn't. And he's still doing it. And he's only doing it more than ever before on a larger stage with more accomplices and it's not okay. Recently his past actions have come to light because last year uh, a Roy's report article went out where multiple witnesses came forward and then they started showing up and their data started showing up elsewhere as well. When I first got involved in it being a public thing I was told that they were going to do a third party investigation. Dr. Brown said that he was going to submit to it, do it and submit to it, hire a third party, follow their instructions and their conclusions. Unfortunately they it looking good for Dr. Brown's ministry and for him didn't last that long because when the report came out, Firefly, the investigative team who did the report, their report was rejected, at least significantly rejected. I'll highlight just two elements of those things that the board rejected from the Firefly Report which they said they would submit to. The first was the use of the terminology sexually abusive misconduct. And you can see on your screen, this was a terminology that they applied to uh, Dr. Brown's relationship with Sarah, the, the teenage girl who was 19 and then 20 throughout the course of their interactions that were inappropriate and they rejected that. The Elder Accountability Team says no, we don't want to use that terminology. We reject that. We're going to call it leadership misconduct which a lot of people including those who were close to the situation thought was misleading. Um, and going back on their word, the other thing that they rejected, the second thing is the, and this is a big deal, the consistent pattern of oppression, of misleading uh, and deception that Dr. Brown was found to be part of. I'll read to you now from the Firefly report. It is believed that over the past 25 years Brown has deliberately deflected questions about allegations of sexual misconduct. This pattern of deflection appears to be a uh, calculated effort to evade accountability, suppress the allegations and protect his ministry's reputation. By maintaining silence and avoiding direct answers, Brown has seemingly sought to shield himself from scrutiny, potentially enabling these stories to remain hidden and preserving his position within the Ministry. This is part of what came out of the actual investigation itself. But Dr. Brown's elder accountability Team, his basically his guys, right? His guys, they get the report from Firefly, they reject this as well and they say instead the following. It appears clear to the Elder Accountability team, those are Dr. Brown's guys that throughout this process dating back 23 years, Dr. Brown has been repeatedly questioned about these two situations and has answered his interrogators consistently with honesty and remorse. That is not what the Firefly report concluded and it is not the evidence that the Firefly report gave. And I'm going to demonstrate that in today's video as well. If they would have simply submitted to Firefly's report, I would not be making this video. If at any point the future Dr. Brown comes out and openly deals with the issues honestly, I'll be happy to delete this video. I'd much rather it not be here. Um, it is also not monetized. I'm not making anything out of doing this. So there was the rejection of the investigation that they said they would submit to. There was the fact that they were pushing against tons of evidence and there's an ongoing pattern of manipulation. I will demonstrate Several lies from Dr. Brown. Many lies from Dr. Brown in this video. I'm sorry to do this. It hurts you. Many of you out there hurt you. Uh, it hurts me too, not to make myself like woe is me. I'm just saying I feel the same way. But then it got worse. Um, Dr. Brown went on to the Mercy Culture podcast. Uh, Mercy Culture, this is Landon and Heather Schott. Their ministry, their church, they have a podcast and they seem to be grabbing a number of people this year who've been exposed as seriously problematic individuals and promoting them. And here now we can add to that, um, this podcast they did with Dr. Brown. So they bring Dr. Brown onto their podcast and it was really bad. Gaslighting, manipulation, half truths, a lot of half truths. Lies, spiritual abuse. Just the worst, worst example of COVID up culture I think I've ever seen, if I'm to be honest with you guys. And I hate to keep adding more information at the beginning of this video, but there's going to be a lot and there will be timestamps down below you can bounce around or the specific 10 lies. I think it's 10 that we ended up with. And uh, you can do that. But one of the reasons why I'm doing this video is because Dr. Brown met with me personally, Mike Winger at ETS. That's the evangelical Theological Seminary, uh, conference that I sometimes do go to when I can. And he asked for some time aside, just the two of us. And I granted it because I love the guy. And I was like, yes, I was excited to go sit with him for a while. He shared his defense and he told me this Stuff before other people found out. He told me stuff, but it was his version of events and I believed him. I had a couple reservations, but I basically believed him. I found out later he was misleading me. I believe he was trying to use me to help him produce cover up to keep things from being exposed and to get me on his team. I think that's what he was doing. And of course he doesn't believe that and argues against that. But I have multiple examples of half truths and outright lies that he told me during this time and I'll share some of them in this video thinking that I was somehow brought into this scenario by Dr. Brown, that I've promoted him so much in the past and that I am, uh, currently on a series of videos that I believe God would have me do to try to expose abuse and deception and fraud that is going on in the church. This is not my forever ministry thing, but for a season I'm going to do this. Even though I do not like it. I thought I need to do this video on Dr. Brown for that and other reasons we're about to explain to you. But joining me today is going to be Ron Kantor, Ron Cantor. Even though he is gonna definitely be demonized by those who are very solidly in the Dr. Brown as being falsely, um, accused camp, uh, Ron has, from what I've seen, consistently been proven true and honest and just right over and over and over again. When I fact check, when I go back, when I look at the private conversations I've had with Dr. Brown and I look and I see this and I confront with other witnesses, over and over again he's been proven true, whereas Dr. Brown is proven false. So I've invited him on today because he's like the foremost representative of the eyewitnesses on this topic and he knows the situation like the back of his hand. I still love and appreciate Dr. Michael Brown. I think highly of his gifts and I treasure his contributions to Jewish apologetics and cultural holiness. But there is, I believe, another side to him that is running unchecked, that it comes out, especially when the threat of the truth coming out is present. It's a side that participates in cover up culture and refuses biblical accountability while feigning holiness. And I think that, um, Dr. Brown behind the scenes has been part of the reason why cover up culture continues to exist. He's not the sole reason, he's not the core of it, but part of the reason his behavior is why cover up culture is running rampant in the charismatic world. This video is Dedicated to those who've had no voice and have been gaslit, manipulated, lied to or lied about by Dr. Michael Brown. And if he repents in the future, this video is dedicated to that future Dr. Michael Brown. Yes, I have already confronted him, as have many others. This is the final step where we tell it to the church. So let me play my interview with Dr. Ron Cantor on 10 Lies from Dr. Michael Brown. Ron, I'm grateful for you meeting with me and doing this video. I know this is unpleasant for both of us. Uh, neither of us really wants to do this. And when I first reached out, you actually weren't going to do it. That was your initial response, was that you were kind of done with this, but you've changed your mind. I just want you to explain to set the stage. Um, here's our disclaimers. They're very important that we share this stuff. Uh, why didn't you want to make this video? 12 00:15:12.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Well, you know, we, you and I think started talking in March, April, um, and we talked about doing something together. Uh, and, and then I had made a commitment that I wasn't going to do any videos about this subject, uh, until after the Firefly investigation. And then I did one with Wake up and Win with Minor Prophets, Julie Royce, a few others, I can't remember. Um, uh, and, uh, I began to see very quickly. I'm telling the whole story. And it's an uncomfortable story to tell. It's about somebody who's very dear to me to this day. I pray for him every single day and for his wife as well. So it is, um, I just felt uncomfortable telling the whole story over and over again. And so, uh, in early May, I decided, all right, I think I'm done with. I felt in my soul that this is done, this chapter is over. I'm moving on with my life. And, um, that's when the Heather Schott video came out. Interview three and a half hours. 13 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:41.000 I gotta tell. Just for people to know this, I gotta say this was, this was, um, the one big response video that, uh, Dr. Michael Brown did to all these things. And it was, in all honesty, I believe it was egregious. It was so bad. It was, it was like every tool in the book for gaslighting, misleading and victim blaming and all this stuff. And it's not that nothing in it was true, but there was so much in it that was misleading. 14 00:16:41.000 --> 00:17:28.000 But today we will be uncovering the big lies told as we share Dr. Brown's story. Dr. Michael Brown said to me, he said, heather And Landon, go and ask the Lord if I am lying. Go and ask him if I'm not trustworthy. And whatever you hear from the Lord and decide, I will be okay with. Because he knows that we seek God and His voice in everything. We hear his voice, we know his voice. We obey his voice. We did. And Dr. Michael Brown, we stand with you. And I also believe that this is unseating demonic principalities and attacks against the body of Christ to divide when I believe we are in a pivotal hour to prepare the body of Christ for the return of Jesus. 15 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So there was a plot. In other words, it wasn't just someone with a grievance because they just get to come to me. Our doors always been open and fully accessible. There was an actual plot people began and it was the same thing. I got an anonymous call, I can't tell you from who, saying this happened, this happened. So spreading all these lies and rumors. But that. That's when it started, September of, Of last year. 16 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:56.000 Many of these people that are making these statements have affairs in the last five and 10 years have done hor. 17 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:03.000 How about pornography accounts? Pornography asking for someone daily physically raped and abused to their amusement. 18 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:04.000 Right. 19 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:09.000 What you're sharing right now, if you are a Christian, to act like you don't understand this at all. 20 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.000 Well, even, even beyond ridiculous, it is ridiculous. 21 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.000 It's here. 22 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:14.000 I don't believe you, frankly. 23 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.000 I don't. I don't. 24 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.000 I don't believe you when you say. 25 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:27.000 That this is offensive to you. I think that moral purity right now is the spirit of the mob. It's popular. So when you get on the Internet and say, I'm going to make this. 26 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 Video and I know it's not going. 27 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:33.000 To be popular, when you know precisely that it is popular and that's the reason you're making the video is because. 28 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.000 It'S going to get the likes, the comments and the shares follows and you. 29 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.000 Can m. And you can monetize it. Right. 30 00:18:37.000 --> 00:19:12.000 So I just want to look in the camera and say, I don't believe you. Who are they restoring? Oh, no, they're not restoring anybody. They're just here to tear down using and abusing the name of Jesus Christ to build their own following. It's literal idolatry. They, uh, absolutely fight themselves that it, it stirred this stuff back up, even for me, because I, I was just waiting for the dust to settle to figure out what really happened here. And then my plate's really full with other stuff. The last thing I wanted to do is a video on Michael Brown, who I've always really respected and appreciated. Um, but uh, but yeah, so you saw that and that that changed things. 31 00:19:12.000 --> 00:21:58.000 For you for all the reasons that you just so eloquently stated that there had to be a response. Number one, they took two clips of me. It's, it's, it's comical, but they took two clips of me and played them completely out of context, which, which showed me that there was some real dishonesty there. If they had just showed it in the full context, I would have been thrilled. Uh, and um, I had to respond to that because it reflected on Sarah. They were saying that Sarah was brainwashed, that she was fine until others got to her, which is simply not true. And we'll get into that. So I just felt like, okay, I didn't, I thought I was done, but I guess I'm not. In fact, a friend of mine, a mutual friend called, uh, a mutual friend and said is, how much longer is Ron gonna make these videos? And I told my friend, you tell him that I'm done. I don't want to make these videos. I was done a month ago. As long as these lies continue, I will continue to confront them. I feel a responsibility, particularly for people that I now know as friends, uh, that if you're going to lie about them, I'm going to confront that lie. But Mike had been quiet since that time. I don't know if that message was delivered to him. And he, he made a calculation that it's better just to be quiet about this. And I hope so because it is better at this point. But then last week, the day after we talked and I told you that I really wasn't comfortable, he um, posted a, or I noticed it the day afterwards he posted a teaching, uh, that he did where he talked about being contrite. How the Lord revives the contrite. He used himself as an example of somebody, I assume, who is now contrite after going through a, a deep trial. So he referred to the past seven, eight months as a trial. Not the consequences of bad behavior, but a difficult trial. That he went the worst trial of his life. And it was m. Misleading, it was gaslighting anybody who would listen. As opposed to saying, you know what? I was credibly accused of sexually abusive misconduct with one, uh, with uh, a 20 year old staffer when I was 46. And, and there was another situation where I found myself in a verbal erotic relationship, uh, with someone that I knew, a married woman. Um, and because of that I've gone through a really Difficult time these past seven months that would have been honest. So that is spin and it's gaslighting and it's wrong. So I talked to you the next morning and I said, okay, I guess we should, uh, let's do it. For me, I hope this is the final word, you know, regarding Dr. Michael Brown and me commenting on it. 32 00:21:58.000 --> 00:23:27.000 Yeah. And for my own sake I think that this is important because of there's, this is, I want to show that there's a real cover up culture going on. Um, and it's not that it only exists inside charismatic circles because that's certainly not true, but it exists very strongly inside charismatic circles for some reason. And uh, the best way I think to show people and then help change it is to just give some examples. Here you go, here's one. Here's one. High profile examples of COVID up culture. And so there's two different issues with Dr. Brown. There's one, the issue of what happened many, many years ago that could have at this stage easily been resolved and recovered from and move on. Um, and then there's the ongoing cover up, uh, that to cover up what you have to do is you have to victimize victims more. That's the nature of COVID up. It always does that. And so there's that continued ongoing stuff. And so today we're going to be talking about um, a number of like 10, we're going to focus on 10, 10 lies from Dr. Michael Brown. I hate to even say this even coming out of my mouth, but we're going to focus on those things because I think that's what they are. But I want us to first start by saying this. Um, what are we not accusing Michael Brown of? Because one of the responses of course is that he's, he's been accused of being a pedophile, of being all these different things. And this is thrown out as like a way of defeating valid accusations or valid claims. So what are we not accusing him of, just to clear the air? 33 00:23:27.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Well, certainly not that. Um, you know, there's no uh, evidence whatsoever of pedophilia. Um, and we're not, there's no evidence of him being a lifelong groomer. As far as we know, these are two incidents that happened 23 years ago and there's nobody who's come forward before or after. So we're not saying that he's living, uh, uh, the only reason we're Talking about this 23 years later is because of the COVID up. And you know, some people say the COVID up is worse than the Crime. And, and if you're a victim, then, then that's certainly not the case. But when people say that, they mean that in order to cover it up. You, you said it well a minute ago, Mike. You have to continue to hurt people, to deceive people, and it becomes this, this web that you cannot get untangled. So we're not saying that Mike Brown is currently, uh, living a deviant life and I trust that he's not. Um, and we're also saying that Mike has been a great value to the body of believers. I. So much of who I am today is a result of his input into my life. Uh, so much of, uh, just my own pursuit in academics, you know, was largely, you know, because of him and his encouragement. So, you know, I love Mike, I care for Mike, and I'm praying, praying for him every day that he just comes fully in this light and just deals with this in a full way so that he can move on with what I believe would be a clear conscience. 34 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:55.000 Yeah, it's the COVID up, it's the continually digging the hole deeper and deeper that has happened and continues to happen, it seems even right. You know, everything that's happened basically has been part of that, um, even recently. And um, we do need to deal with that. We're not accusing him of having some like harem. We're not accusing him of other sorts of things. That is not the case. Actually my biggest issue, the reason why I'm going to bring this up is because it's not an old, dead past issue. It is an ongoing issue of COVID up of an old issue. And that makes it an ongoing issue. And so it should be addressed. And it's part of the same pattern of behaviors that I've seen in so many other groups. This is why there is not, there wasn't accountability for Mike Bickle until social media started making it happen. This is why there wasn't accountability for Sean Bowles until social media started forcing it to happen. And you could keep going down the list of guys who still don't have accountability because it just hasn't gotten public enough yet. 35 00:25:55.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah, well, many of these guys are submitted not to New Testament elders and they're not necessarily part of a regular New Testament congregation where they fellowship and eat pizza together and do it, you know, prayer meetings. They, they are on a ministry circuit in, in. Their only accountability is to a board. And that board could be their friends, it could be family members, it could be a combination of both. Uh, but it's typically people who are not willing to hold them accountable unless there is incredible pressure coming from the outside. So for those who decry the use of social media, I agree it's not ideal. It's not God's primary way. It is a, you know, his primary way is through New Testament elders who are concerned about truth. Uh, but you have these, these boards who may, in some boards you might even have unbelievers. So how are they going to judge a minister according to the standards, you know, in the Bible? So I believe that God is using social media, social media, podcasters, et cetera, in this moment. Uh, but I pray that one day it would be the rightly appointed group, New Testament elders. 36 00:27:05.000 --> 00:29:43.000 Right, I agree with that. And there's plenty of the social media stuff that's garbage and that's just people seeking their own carnal motives or wanting to just titillate the ears or whatever. But there's plenty of that. But there is also a properness to saying, um, accountability will not come through the proper means. Let's, let's go to the people and let's try and see if we can create it. And that, that can be a very positive thing. And I don't, I don't think Mike Bickle ever would have been found out if it wasn't for that. I don't think he ever would have. And I think anybody who denies that is probably just part of COVID up culture and they're worried about it being taken away from them. It's, you know, when you just have your powerful friends with mutual interests and they're the only people that can hold you accountable. You don't have, like for me, the elders at my church don't benefit from my ministry in some direct fashion. You know what I mean? Like, they would call me out, like, if they knew I was in an adulterous affair, they would call me out and I think they'd issue a public statement if I, you know, if they felt like they should, to tell everybody I need to be, I need to be pushed out of this ministry. And um, that, that's a healthy thing that's in my local body that that exists. But if you don't have that happening, then what are you gonna do? So, okay, we're probably getting in the weeds a little bit. Um, can we back up, can you just back up and give me like a big picture? And oh, I want to mention before we get into that, um, I also have appreciated Michael Brown. I've defended Michael Brown. I've lost subscribers and followers, which I'm okay with because I was in defense of Michael Brown. I bring him on, I recommended his books, did an interview with him and I knew doing it that I was going to be sparking controversy and giving myself headaches. And I was okay with that because I really appreciated his contribution, especially to answering Jewish objections to Jesus. That series was I thought really, really useful and helpful and unique and um, still like it actually. But um, this is because I was also brought into and involved in some of the COVID up when he met with me back in November of last year and he shared some stuff with me that was not true. And I'm going to hold him accountable for that publicly because this has to do with re victimizing someone who was already hurt in the past. And um, I'm not getting sucked into that cover up stuff. So, um, this will also cost me on the other end. But I'm doing this because at least in my opinion, um, it's the right thing to do. Especially because I was personally brought in. And if I don't do this video about Mike Brown, even though I've promoted, um, him elsewhere, I think that that is me playing favorites at that point. 37 00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:44.000 Right? 38 00:29:44.000 --> 00:31:21.000 Being dishonest. So yeah, we're going to share this stuff and we hope that it ends up in the long run bringing benefit to him. Um, but whether it does or not, I think it will bring benefit to the body if we can try to graciously recognize when cover up culture is happening and try to help put a stop to it. And that means being honest about what's going on. So anybody who's going to shame you or me or these witnesses for coming forward and sharing truth, I think you are, you are on the wrong side using phrases like accuser of the brethren. That is, you know, Satan knows how to say that too. One of Satan's favorite phrases is accuser. Don't be an accuser of the brethren. He loves that phrase. So let's just be wise and biblical and say, uh, oh no, the scripture says that the elder who is sinning, you, you rebuke in the presence of all that. The rest also may fear that this sense of insecurity people feel because these videos I've been making or that you've made and they're like, well, I don't feel safe now with you Ron, or with you Mike. I don't feel safe because what if you expose me and I want to respond and say yes, while it's not my job to expose everybody, it is proper that you don't feel safe. I should not feel Safe. Ron should not feel safe because there are standards that we are externally required to hold to as Christians, especially, uh, leaders who should be judged more strictly. So, um, anyway, that being said, Rod, if you could. Man, what's. What is like the telescopic from a million miles away, just glancing at everything that's happened. Can you give us, like, an overview? Because this is sort of a postmortem at this point. 39 00:31:21.000 --> 00:33:56.000 It's, uh, it's important that you understand the background. I didn't show up out of nowhere and say, I'm going to publicly, uh, you know, expose, uh, Dr. Michael Brown. We've known each other since 1984, and we've been friends most of that time. Was it 40 years? Um, we were together at the Brownsville Revival. And, um, Mike is a dynamic minister, a dynamic personality. And at the end of the time, at the revival, uh, he was let go, and there was a split. And, um, we did have a falling out at that time that lasted for about eight years. And then we reconciled. And when we reconciled, we reconciled fully. I mean, we went on vacation, like, within months. Um, it was like nothing ever happened. And it was beautiful and wonderful. Um, you know, some people have wondered if I have some sort of obsession with Mike wanting to bring, uh, God forbid, God forbid, you know, if I fear the Lord, that I would purposely torpedo somebody who's probably the greatest messianic Jewish apologist in the world. Um, you know, like you mentioned earlier, his, uh, answering, uh, Jewish objection series. So God forbid that I would ever be a part of anything like that. Um, I have loved Mike. You know, in 2018, he was attacked by a conservative minister in Israel and labeled a false prophet publicly. Nobody went after that guy like I did, trying to get him to repent. First of all, I don't think you can declare somebody a false prophet by yourself. There needs to be a counsel and consideration. It was over something that. That Mike has written a lot about that happened in 1988. And, um, I was. I was livid. And I went to his employer, and they made a statement distancing themselves. But it just shows how much I loved him. And just a year ago, uh, in June, he was in Israel, and I took him down to the south to the areas that were affected. October 7th, we did some filming together. I took him out to lunch. We had a great day together. And then it was a few months after that, in October, that, um, you know, I'm. I'm emailing him back and forth over something that happened. Somebody attacked both of us. Online and I just sent him a little quip like it's, you know, it's a joy, you know to be brothers in this thing together. I loved Mike Brown. The idea that I've been waiting for an opportunity to hurt him is if it's true then I'm a sick person. Um, I. Can you judge for yourself? I love the Lord and I love Mike. Uh, but there are certain things that we can't do and we can't cover up. 40 00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:12.000 From Jerusalem with special interviews today with one of my dearest friends in the world, Ron Cantor. We've known each other since 1984. My friend Ron Cantor in Israel in our history. Ron, we go back to 1984, is that right? 41 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.000 Yes. 42 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Speaking to my good friend, my dear friend for decades, Ron Cantor. 43 00:34:17.000 --> 00:35:03.000 And Ron, if I can, let me just say real quick for those who are thinking that about you, um, consider the following is that what we're about to bring is evidence and multiple testimonies to try to establish facts. That's what persuaded me to go forward on this. Evidence and multiple testimonies. The accusation that Ron is just going after Mike because of personal issues. You have no evidence at all and you are basically creating a policy where you will ignore evidence and testimonies and just attack a person because uh, you're picking a side or something like that which is partiality, very thing that we're told not to do. So um, that being said, um, in all honesty Ron, even if you were just axe to grind, it doesn't mean that what you're saying is not true. 44 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:04.000 Right? 45 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:08.000 And we still have to handle these facts and deal with them and it's. 46 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:56.000 Become a talking point and a narrative. And what I have noticed over the last seven months is there are certain narratives and talking points that are repeated uh, by Dr. Brown and those close to him that are repeated uh, for a reason such as the recent ones we saw a few uh, maybe two months ago now. Where Raleigh, Washington. His, his new spokesman said that uh, that I, my influence in Sarah's life, she was one of the victims. Uh, I made it ten times worse uh, than, than what Mike really did to her. I some, I somehow sinisterly came in and said hey Sarah, let's, you know maybe this happened, maybe that it's just absurd. Absurd. And of course we never heard back from Raleigh. I think he was, he may have been a one time spokesman. 47 00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:08.000 Um, well he, I'll tell you later he ghosted me as well. Supposed to be, he was supposed to be my point guy to help. I Tried to clear this stuff up, you know, privately. And he was supposed to be the point guy and he, it didn't work out. Well. 48 00:36:08.000 --> 00:38:30.000 Um, yeah, I think he may have resigned again. We haven't heard his name other than that one time in the Roy's report, I think. Okay. Um. It wasn't a good week, I don't think, for him. Um, and rightly so. People don't like being told that they've. That, that they've been brainwashed, that they've been manipulated. That is gaslighting. Uh, so going back to October now. So it's not October, it's October 2024. Mike and I are very close friends. He's a mentor. Uh, I look up to him, but we're buddies now. You know, I'm getting ready to turn 60, he's getting ready to turn 70. And I have a friend, former, uh, student. I wouldn't call him a friend at the time. Somebody I knew who gets in touch with me. I just gotten home from Jerusalem, I live in Israel, and I just gotten home from a prayer meeting and was checking my messenger, uh, and there's a note from this guy. And he says, I just want you to be aware that Mike Brown is being investigated for two situations, uh, of sexual sin. And when I read that I don't have words to describe the inner turmoil that I almost fell out of my chair. I was like, what? No, it's like when your favorite sport, team loses and you keep playing back in your head. No, they didn't really lose, but they did. But this is far worse than that because people's lives are extinct. I just couldn't believe it. No, this not Mike. So I talked to this guy about an hour later and he went through much of the details and, uh, I said, all right, I have to, I have to contact Mike. So I was stunned. For three days I walked around my apartment, uh, in Israel. I didn't talk. My wife, she looked at me. I couldn't make words. I was just so shocked because, uh, Mike has a message called, uh, achaita, which is a Hebrew word that means the final end. It's a message he preached over and over again. And it's a powerful message. And he preaches it at the end of the IHOP message. And it's a warning that if you knew, acharit means your final end, and you see it all through proverbs, uh, that if this person knew their final end, they wouldn't have done it in the beginning, like a drug addict. If he could see Himself dying in the streets, you know, begging for money. He would not have taken that first hit. 49 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:54.000 Only could have seen the acharit. Only could have seen everything stripped away. Friends that have walked with God for years. Ministers of the gospel, it takes a long time to climb up that mountain. It takes a long time to climb up that place where people respect you and you have a reputation for integrity and honor and trustworthiness. But you can fall from that mountain in one minute. You can open the door, Open the. 50 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.000 Door, Open the door, Open the door, Open the door. 51 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.000 And then take one step and you're through it. 52 00:38:59.000 --> 00:42:38.000 I just, uh, um, I mean, Mike was so strong with that message that. And disciplined. I just. I just couldn't fathom that these were true. So I got ahold of him, uh, about three days later, and I said, mike, I am dreading. And by the way, all these emails can be read m what I wrote his responses to me. I brought two more people. Matthew 18 in Brown Report, Brown Witness Report dot com. I reached out to Mike and I said, uh, Mike, this is an email I don't want to write you. I'm dreading, but you're my friend and I don't know if you know, but you're being investigated and I want you to know. And so, uh, I won't tell you, tell you what he said then, because we're going to get into that later. Um, but that led to a series of conversations throughout the weekend where I then confronted very specific things that I was told, uh, between two women 23 years ago. And I came to find out that these. This had been confronted at least 10 different times over the past 23 years. But Mike had evaded responsibility. I didn't realize that I was number 10 or 11 in secession. So by the end of the weekend, he had found out about this. He told me six weeks earlier. And that weekend I was coming into the states from Israel, and I said, well, let's talk when I get there. Um, we did talk briefly. He told me a little bit more that there was a girl or a woman, uh, 20 years old that was like a daughter to him. And he acted foolishly that that was pretty much what he told me. And he sat down with his board that weekend and told them, but he didn't tell them everything. He left out the other situation. So there were two situations. And I'll give you the very, very short version and then we can open it up. So with one woman, Sarah Monk, uh, she worked for him. She was a grad. She was like A family member. And she loved Mike like a father. But. But then he took it to, uh, what I would call a darker, more physical place where there was hand holding, uh, there was kissing, uh, on the forehead at least. Uh, again, I'll tell you what I found out that weekend from him. Hand holding, kissing on the forehead, smacking her on her butt from time to time, and then meeting late at night at Walmart, uh, just the two of them. And for us in the Brownsville Revival, the idea of a married man doing anything alone with an unmarried woman was just. That was grounds for getting kicked out of school. You just never do anything like that. So as he confessed this. And by that stage, we're in the second phase of what I would call Matthew 18. I confronted him privately. Um, I heard his denial, and then I brought two guys with me, and I said, mike, here's specifically what I heard. And then he confessed probably to about 65, 70% of what was being accused. And the next day I wrote him back and I said, mike, listen, I understand that you think you acted foolishly, and this was not really. And with the other woman, by the way, he said that there was a sinful soul tie. Uh, but there was no real description of what that meant. We now know after the investigation that it was a verbal, um. A textual email and then phone erotic relationship. Uh, that. That progressed over many months until it. It got to a place that was quite unclean. And according to Ray, the husband, that included, uh, Mike pressuring this woman Kim, into not sleeping with her own husband, which shows a, uh. A, uh, desire for possession. You know, you're mine. You don't belong to him. You belong to me. 53 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.000 That is a direct assault upon the marriage. 54 00:42:41.000 --> 00:45:46.000 Yes. And he pressured Kim to meet her. Meet him in a public place. When I say public, I mean outside the home, privately. And she would not do those things. Uh, and so I didn't know all those details on that day, but just based on what I knew is that out of his mouth, a sinful soul tie, um, with Kim and with, uh, the single woman, Sarah, 20 years old. Uh, there was a, uh, touching of her butt, kissing on the head, holding her hand in front of a bunch of other students and proclaiming that this is my. You know, Sarah's like a daughter to me. That's why I can hold her hand. And then he can. Continued to hold her hand in a car with. With students watching for several minutes. It was, uh, unsettling to the students who were in the car. Um, and then meeting late at Night at Walmart. So the next day I wrote him Mike with two others as witnesses. And I said, mike, I understand that you think these are not that big of a deal. I said, but they're actually a big deal. And I know it happened 23 years ago, uh, but this would be considered abuse, certainly sexual harassment. Touching, uh, somebody who works for you, touching their rear end on a regular basis. Um, you can't do that and then deal with it on your own. And so I was so gentle. I said, mike, you, you should have confessed this to your elders. He was the senior leader of a team of elders. I said, you should have confessed this to them 23 years ago and submitted to whatever discipline and restoration. And it's. It wouldn't have been a career ending sin. It is sin. Let's not make any mistake. But you could have been restored. And I, uh, said, but now your only hope really is to, to submit this afresh to a team of elders who can adjudicate it. And I'll help you. I'll walk with you through the process. And he was not interested in that. And so we kind of broke off contact after that because I was not interested in continuing the conversation if he was not willing to deal with it honestly. So it wasn't long after that that I felt it was now my duty to find out what happened. So I got in touch with the young girl. Sarah Kim had passed away, uh, and I didn't have any idea that her husband Ray, wanted to speak with me. So I, through a mutual friend, I was put in touch with Sarah. And she told me a story that was much more severe, uh, which included, um, not just, uh, kissing, uh, on the forehead, but kissing on the cheek and kissing on the lips, just a peck. But it was regular. It was something they would do at the end of the day. It was something they would do when they went after their grocery store visits. Um, uh, in addition to that, not only did he hold her hand, uh, publicly once, but then. And there's a clear escalation, you know, which, I mean, I'm sorry, that, that, that would be grooming. You know, you do it, you test the waters here. And it was without her consent. He didn't take her hand. And you know, do you mind if I do this in front of other people? But he took her hand and, um, and then continued to hold it. 55 00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:30.000 Yeah, he's the spiritual leader. He's the one that she's looking to, to provide wisdom, disc, in all honesty, set the boundaries of the relationship. And so he's pushing those boundaries and pushing those boundaries, and it is escalating. This has been. We'll talk about this later. But this is a pattern where he would minimize the nature of the relationship with people he talked to. And then you'd find out from Sarah it was actually more, it was actually worse than that. Or with an eyewitness, uh, like Chris, who would say, I watched and he tells us it was actually this, not that. And then you keep finding this out over and over again. And it happened so many times to find out, oh, it was more than you said. Oh, it was bigger than you said. Oh, it was worse than you said over and over again. Even 23 years down the road. Yeah, yeah. 56 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:44.000 And so, you know, you listening at home. Mike, uh, just mentioned Chris. That's Chris Bennett. And he comes into the story because he was in the car and saw the hand holding thing. But his story will come out later. You might want to write down some of these names so you don't get confused. 57 00:46:44.000 --> 00:47:15.000 Yeah, um, we're mostly interested in these, these, these two girls, Sarah and Kim. Sarah was the student who he, some would say groomed. I would at least say he's pushing boundaries and he's creating a relationship that is unhealthy, inappropriate, and leading into very dangerous places. In fact, it seems already to be in a place. But then there's, uh, Kim, who is the woman he has a erotic correspondence with, erotic talking and whatever forms that took, written or verbal. 58 00:47:15.000 --> 00:49:00.000 And the reason we know about that, it's really interesting because if not for this one thing, I'm going to tell you right now, nobody would ever know because they wanted to keep this tight shut. The one outside person who knew about it was sworn to secrecy. According to the firefighter report, he was not even allowed to tell his wife. And, um, this is from Mike and Nancy Brown. So, uh, whatever happened between Kim and Mike, apparently Mike wrote down, uh, on a legal pad, uh, a bunch of fantasies that the two of them had of each other. Now, I want to be clear. I don't know if Kim ever said those things or not. I just know that it was in his handwriting that he wrote it down. So I don't want to throw her under the bus. I don't know what she did or didn't do. What I know is what he's confessed to. And I know that on a legal pad he wrote down these fantasies. Now, I only know that is because later I believe it was in July. So six months later, um, after that relationship ends, uh, the relationship he had with Kim was, I think it was the latter Part of 2001. Uh, and it was escalating. It was, you know, went from personal emails to intimate emails to erotic emails. And, and I can't give you all the timelines, but I know that it ended in early 2002. And so six months later or so July, Sarah is house sitting at the Brown's house. Uh, they're out of town, they're just house sitting the dog. And they tell her to sleep in their bedroom, which she does. Now, Sarah used to leave notes. And this is another thing that was quite egregious from the Heather Schott interview Mike kept more than once. He talked about Sarah rummaging through their drawers. 59 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Been house sitting for us, which we did a couple times because we had this little dog. Nancy and I were away and she uh, was for some reason rummaging through some of our drawers and found a note I'd written. Somehow Sarah was rummaging through our drawers, found that. 60 00:49:14.000 --> 00:51:06.000 That is not what happened. And that's just not nice to say because it puts an image, uh, of somebody who's snooping. But the fact of the matter is that Mike and Sarah, just to show you how unhealthy the relationship was, used to leave notes for each other. Now how strange would that be if there was a single woman out there that even if my wife knew about it, but if she didn't know about it, even worse. You know, we're always leaving little notes, hiding. You know, Mike would reach in his pocket, oh, there's a note. So she put it in his Bible. And so she writes a note to him and puts it in the nightstand. When she opens the nightstand, she sees the yellow pad that he, uh, in his handwriting. That's how she finds out about the fantasies between the two of them, or at least what Mike wrote down. So if she doesn't open that drawer, we're not talking about this today. So she finds it and she's devastated. Um, I mean it's shocking because even though Mike is pushing the boundaries with her, she doesn't yet, uh, fully understand that this is unclean, what he's doing. But then she reads this and she's like, oh my goodness, I can't. I don't want to put words in her mouth. But I think she said something like, I'm not the only one. And this is, this is clear, you know, erotic speech. So she goes and confronts Mike with this, uh, not long after that, and he brings in his wife Nancy. And according to Sarah, what she told me and what she told Chris Bennett. Remember that name? Chris Bennett in 2020, same story. She said that Mike and Nancy sat her down. They said, we're glad that you found these notes because now Mike can repent to you and you can represent the entire student body. And you forgiving Mike is like the student body forgiving Mike. And you know, which this is. 61 00:51:06.000 --> 00:52:10.000 This is part of the COVID up culture thing. It's like, where did this weird rule come from? You're gonna random student, you're gonna represent everybody. The only reason to say this is so that he doesn't have to have accountability for it. I get it. I don't want accountability either. I just have to have it anyways. That's just how it works. Nobody wants accountability like none of us do. Once, once you're busted, you don't want it. But. But it, it, it has to happen whether you enjoy it or like it or not. And yeah, this is, this is an example of the COVID up thing is the one thing that's been consistent throughout the entirety of this entire thing. It's still ongoing. Even in my interactions with, with, with Mike. Um, it's been the same thing. It's been just continual cover up, cover up, cover up, spin, spin, spin. Half truths, misleading information. It's been, you know, we'll give several examples today. A bunch of them. So it's, um. Anyways, I just want to help affirm that because I know that some people watching will not realize instantly how problematic that was. It might sound romantic. You're going to forgive me on behalf of the student body? No, no, that's not okay. 62 00:52:10.000 --> 00:55:33.000 No, it's not. It's severe manipulation. And I mean, she's 20 years old, they're in their 40s. She now is really confused and upset, and she decides that she needs to get out of there. And let me make this point. She was brought into Mike Brown's inner circle, and she was, she felt honored. Like you're in the middle of a historic revival. The Brownsville revival lasted for five years. Two million people visited. It was beautiful and it was powerful. And she gets to hang out with one of the primary leaders of the revival, be close to his family, and then it turns weird. So she came there to be a disciple. She came there to be on fire for God. She left in September of 22, uh, uh, 2002. Broken, backslidden, leaving God. And that's also written in what she wrote. So what happens is that as she leaves, people begin to get concerned. Like, where did Sarah go, she's disappeared. And so there that, that began some of the, the rumors because people saw them, people saw the hand holding, people saw that they were closer than a 46 year old, uh, man of God should be with a 20 year old student. So there were many people within that community that they didn't get it, they didn't understand, uh, and they had concerns. So that began a series of confrontations that we can get into later. So she left Pensacola confused, angry, hurt. But right before she left, this is a big piece of evidence, uh, she called up Mike and she's angry and she's upset and she tells him off. And she says, I know what you did to me. The kissing on my lips, the, you know, smacking my butt. I know it was wrong, uh, you know, meeting you late at night at Walmart. I know that that was not right. And what she did not know is that her sister was listening. Now at that point, her sister would go on to say later that we, once you started hanging out with Mike Brown and Mike and Nancy Brown, we never saw you anymore. You know, that became your life. You got sucked into that and, and then, you know, you just disappeared and went to Texas. Um, but she said she overheard that phone call. She told her parents that night, uh, that she overheard that phone call. And she's written down, she testified to the firefighter report, so that is evidence. Uh, she couldn't hear Mike on the other line, but it did not appear to her that he was denying anything. So she moves away and then others become concerned. And so these confrontations begin. We'll get into those later, but that is the issue. We're talking about a story of two different women. Sarah Monk, who's 20 years old, enthralled with her leader, just amazed that she's in the inner circle. And it ends up being a, not a sexual, you know, in the bed, but what I would call a very romantic, intimate relationship with Mike. And then there is Kim, which was a, a sexual relationship. It just wasn't physical. And in terms of the timeline, from everything I can understand, the relationship with Kim would, Kim would have been the latter part, probably the Last half of 2001. It may have started before that and. But at what time it became erotic, I don't know. And with Sarah, uh, it seems that it started in around May 2002 and ended when she left Pensacola in September 2002. So they happened one right after the other. 63 00:55:33.000 --> 00:57:49.000 To catch people up where we're at now and what we're about to do we're going to go through, I asked Ron, hey, let's, let's just find specific examples that cut through the noise that show that there's a pattern of deception going on with Michael Brown dealing with this stuff. And so we have these like 10 lies that he's uh, that you've outlined. We're going to walk through them and go through them m in detail. Now the reason how these came up is because um, as by now in the video I should have already summarized this but as I've said there's what happened 23 years ago, then there is uh, the pattern of COVID up and it culminated this just the end of last year and this year when things went public. They eventually agree to do this third party investigation and to publish the results and to submit to the results of the investigation that didn't really happen. The elder board, in response to the investigation that goes public, they uh, they then offer their interpretation of the investigation and their, in a sense their judgment and rejection of elements of it. While they say they didn't reject it, but they did in reality. They, they reject specific claims, specific findings that seem highly evidenced and they reject the term sexually abusive misconduct and just call it leadership misconduct. So this is what I start seeing is cover up and spin control because it wasn't justified what they did. It was also going back on, I think going back on their word that they were going to submit to this thing. Then we have all this data. We have Michael Brown then starting to defend himself finally with this, uh, with this video he did with land and the shots. Mercy culture who seem like they defend anybody who has enough of a following. It's crazy. They were defending Todd White and defending uh, is it Sean Bulls now too? Anyway, they're just defending whoever they have to and this is where we're going to try to cut through and draw specific examples from all of this pool of data. Lots and lots of witnesses have been gathered, uh, an investigation has been conducted and you're basically just agreeing with that investigation. We're not here presenting some unique singular view that you've come up with. Um, so that with that set up these are going to be like 10 specific examples of lies and cover up culture that have gone on around this issue that should be dealt with. And if they hadn't been, if the lies hadn't been said, they wouldn't need to be confronted. We're just responding to them here. 64 00:57:49.000 --> 00:59:18.000 Right. And what we're showing is that there is a pattern of lying. So as we go through this, let Me just say that truth is a really high value with me. I have a lot of weaknesses in my life, and if you hung out with me, you would see them. Uh, but truth is a very high value. And so it's been disconcerting to see how easily, um, at least in my opinion, Mike has been willing to lie to me and to others. So let's just start with number one. So, uh, in his first response to me, uh, so Remember back in October 2024, I emailed him and said, I'm dreading doing this, but I have to ask you about these, uh, about what I've heard. And so his response to me was, quote, I did hear some crazy reports about six weeks ago with some wildly false charges about me that allegedly were about to come out in an alleged report from Julie that would be Julie Roy's, but they were completely untrue. So right out of the gate, he is lying to me right at the very first thing. I mean, that is a clear, objective lie, because we know that they were not completely untrue. They were at least partly true. And if he'd said to me, ron, listen, yeah, I heard too, and there is some truth to it. There's some lies to it, you know, let's talk. That would have been different. But he uses the words completely untrue in wildly false charges, um, as a. 65 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:28.000 Sweeping statement of the whole thing. Not that. Yeah, you could probably come up with something they asked him about that wasn't true, because that's the way reporting works. Hey, what about this? What about that? 66 00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:29.000 So the grapevine works. 67 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.000 Um, yeah, but, but, uh, but. But the report actually was substantially true. 68 00:59:34.000 --> 01:00:17.000 And neither did he give me any indication that for the past 23 years that different groups of people have confronted him about this, like, like he acted like this was all brand new to him, when in fact it was not at all. Um, and then he asked me to tell him exactly what he heard. And, you know, I've learned, um, you know, I'm pretty gullible, you know, but so I did, you know, but I've learned that that is a tactic you want to find out before you confess. You don't want to over confess. So this is what he's done to other people with Lynda Parker when she came to his Office back in 2002 about these issues. You know, you know, what do you think? You know, what have you heard? And so, uh, I did. 69 01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:28.000 He did this with. With me in our phone call, uh, in a similar fashion of. I was trying to not Tell him what I remembered from our conversation and have him tell me what he remembered. But he wouldn't let me. He was finally. Tell me what you remember, Mike. 70 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:20.000 Yeah, And I. I found out, Mike, very quickly, that this. That he had lied to me, because by that weekend, I was asking him specific questions. Um, as I learned more information. I can't remember if I had more information. I was simply terrified. And you have to understand that when you're confronting somebody that you love and respect, 10 years older than you, who's an intimidating figure, you don't just come in like a bull in a china shop. I was very gentle and felt guilty. Uh, but he lied to me. And I didn't tell him everything I knew in that first email because I was scared. But on Saturday, I laid it out in a document with me and two other people, and I said, because he was asking us by that time to defend him. You know, like, he was hoping that his friends. In fact, that's probably why he was talking to you. You know, he was looking for people to defend him. 71 01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:56.000 I believe that that is the case, and I share that with him as well. I believe that. So in November at, uh, ETS last year, the conference, he pulled me aside for those who don't know, and asked me if, uh, we could talk. Hey, can we make some special time to talk? Um, and in hindsight, the entire flow of the conversation, I think I was being set up to be on his side and potentially to help defend him because he. He knew stuff was coming down the line. And when I look back at that conversation, there's some specific things he said to me that were not true. Some were just misleading, and some were just a lie. Um. Yeah. 72 01:01:56.000 --> 01:02:02.000 Do you want to bring those up now or later? 73 01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:14.000 Sure. Um, he told me that Sarah had, um, gone to. And I. I submitted this to you guys in the report that you. Which I'll link down below as well, which is like, how many Pages is 150 or something? 74 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:17.000 130. 105, I think. 75 01:02:17.000 --> 01:05:07.000 Yeah, 35 pages of stuff. So my. My part of that was to say, um, he had told me that Sarah had undergone, gone to a counselor and received some kind of memory recovery therapy, and this fabricated memories. So that's why she was now bringing accusations to him that he's like, I don't know where this came from. That never happened. That never happened. And it was all like, a lot of that. And, um, I can't recall if he said he heard she went somewhere to a counselor or if he knew for a fact she went and got a counselor and did this memory recovery thing. But he adamantly tells me, even now, uh, still says he never told me that. And he never said it to anybody. He says, I've never said it to you. I didn't say it to anybody. I'm 100% confident. 100% confident. He said that to me. Um, I did not make this up. Hey, guys. Mike, I'm cutting in here again with the edit. I want to share something now that I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to share when me and Ron first recorded this. But I played the video for, let's, um, say a friend of mine who wanted to see this, and I wanted to talk with him and get confirmation. So I don't mean to be evasive or weird, but the guy wants to stay anonymous. But I'll say this. There was somebody who called me because he was trying to figure out what was going on with the Michael Brown stuff. And we spoke on the phone for a while and he spontaneously volunteered that Brown had privately told him about Sarah getting memory recovery therapy. Or at least Brown had put into his mind that Sarah had gotten memory recovery therapy. He led him to believe this. Now he volunteered this info and I stopped him in his tracks. I said, wait a minute, stop. Please say that again. This is really important. He said what to you? And we talked about that for a few minutes. Unexpectedly, I wasn't looking forward. I didn't know there was anybody else he had said this to because he denied to me over the phone, said he didn't say it to anybody, and that was a good reason to think that I was just remembering it wrong. But I now have another witness. And not only is there him, but also he told it to his wife. He went to his wife after the fact, and, um, she heard his part of the conversation and they also discussed it. And in that conversation, he tells her about the memory recovery stuff, that it was, uh, um, put into his mind. I'm using my words carefully here. Put into his mind. Words were said by Dr. Michael Brown that put into his mind the belief that she had gone to a counselor and received memory recovery therapy. I am not alone in this. This is very disappointing. And he not only told me over the phone that he didn't tell me that, he told me he never told anybody that. And he used that as leverage to try to convince me that I was remembering wrong, which, which I consider to be, um, if true, that's good. Tell me I'm wrong. But if not, it's high level manipulation and lies after the fact, which is part of this whole culture of COVID up thing. I'm not going to be party to a culture of COVID up. 76 01:05:07.000 --> 01:05:33.000 Right. And I can tell you that in a letter he wrote to my leadership team as he was getting very concerned about me, uh, because again, I came initially in love and compassion and willing to walk with him through a process. But it got intense very quickly and he wrote my leadership team to try to get them to yank me. You know, these are my peer leaders. And um, he wrote, ah. 77 01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:34.000 Nancy, uh. 78 01:05:34.000 --> 01:07:01.000 And I want to reach out to Sarah as per our statement, regardless of how much others have gotten into her ears in recent years and to what extent her memories have changed. So I, uh, he's clearly planting a seed there that her memories have been changed. This was just after I met her. He wasn't referring to me getting in her ears because I, I didn't know anything about this until October of 2024. But he seems to think that there are a bunch of people that were kind of urging her to, you know, didn't he do this? But the truth of the matter is, and here's the truth folks, she only talked to two people. One was Chris Bennett in 2020. We're going to learn about that later on. And the other was Amber Rhodes, uh, just after Mike went to ihop, who reached out to her with the same question. Was there more? Again, there's a group of maybe 50 people that have questions in their mind about Mike Brown's relationship with Sarah Monk because it was so confusing back when things took place. Place. So she was the second person, Amber Rhodes. She was the second person that Sarah opened up to and said, yeah, something, something happened. But until 2020, Sarah never told anyone. So the idea that there's a group of people putting memory, there is no group. So um, certainly when I came along to her, I, I, I just listened to her story for an hour and a half. 79 01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:53.000 The nature of this is he has to ruin her, her, the reliability of her testimony in order to establish his own testimony on these issues. But because we can show he has a pattern of being deceptive and manipulating and giving half truths throughout the course of time to many, many people. Um, it only bolsters the credibility of Sarah's testimony. So my own experience, to offer a small piece of this is that um, I'm confident he tried to mislead me and then later tried to mislead me about misleading me. And that, uh, that is shocking and unexpected. And I would never have thought he would do that. Okay, that surprises me. I'm not mad and angry over it, but I think I have a responsibility for the sake of, say, Sarah, whose name is being besmirched here to speak the truth about this issue. 80 01:07:53.000 --> 01:09:26.000 Yeah, and that's a side of my, that you, you only meet when his backup is back up. When his back is up against the wall. Sadly, he's capable of misleading, lying, gaslighting in order to save himself. That is my opinion. Uh, and by the way, I keep saying things are my opinion because presently, uh, Mike Brown is threatening me with a lawsuit, or at least his lawyer is. Okay, so just finishing up on that point number one. The reason I asked him to answer these specific things after he told me that everything was false and then he answered them, you know, confessing to most of it, uh, was because he was asking us and many of his friends have, have big platforms, bigger than mine. Um, and what he was hoping that people, and I believe, like you, Mike Winger, that, that they would defend him. He needed them to defend him. So it was based on that, that he, he did something that he hadn't done with others for the most part, which was, uh, Well, I shouldn't say others. He, he doesn't always do. Which is to answer by email because once you answer, once you confess, that becomes public record if, if someone wants to make it public. So, um, that's why he ended up confessing at that point. Okay. If this is all anyone hears from this video, I mean, I hope we can put like a, a chapter point here because this is the most egregious thing of just about anything he said in that absurd interview. Uh, but when he told, uh, heathershot. In fact, let me, let me go ahead and just play it for you. 81 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:34.000 Right, But I'm going to set this up just to remind anybody who gets a little lost in the names. Kim was the woman who he had a erotic relationship with. 82 01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:36.000 Um, married mother. 83 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:55.000 Married woman. Yeah, married mother whose dad was working for him in the ministry. And now he's trying to. Who's husband? Not dad. Um, and now what he's trying to do is distance himself from the, the gravity of what was happening there. And it's with something that is simply a lie. And this is example number two. 84 01:09:55.000 --> 01:10:03.000 I was Mike. I was not Dr. Brown. I was not her pastor, was not over her spiritual. I led the school of ministry. She was not a student in the school. 85 01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:08.000 Yeah, he's going to say that this is not clergy sexual abuse because they Were peers, you know. 86 01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:09.000 Right. 87 01:10:08.000 --> 01:12:04.000 And so just for folks who are not familiar with that term, uh, the idea of clergy sexual abuse is the idea that a powerful pastor, minister, evangelist would use their status, their celebrity, their anointing in order to. Mike Bickle is a perfect case to draw, uh, uh, the vulnerable into a, uh, sexual relationship that is clergy sexual abuse. Where if Mike Brown were the plumber, Kim probably would not have ended in that type of relationship with him. It was because of his position. And so let's go ahead and just listen to this. Okay? So as somebody who was around back then, I want folks to understand that Mike was bigger than life. The idea that they both worked in the church like it's first community, you know, this was the Brownsville Revival with 2 million visitors over five years. You know, hundreds of thousands of people getting right with God. A Bible school came out of it. So the four principal leaders, uh, were celebrities. I don't mean that necessarily in a bad sense, but they were known. And m. Mike was one of those leaders. He was the in house scholar. You know, if anyone like Hank Hanegraaff came after the revival, it was Mike. He wrote a book. What was it called? Do not be Deceived. Uh, he was the in house scholar when it came, Resident scholar when it came to the revival. Not to mention that he had a regular Saturday morning. Understand, people came from over the world and they would come for like a week. So we had services Wednesday night, uh, uh, Thursday night, Friday night, and then Saturday morning or afternoon, all those visiting pastors, which could be hundreds, would meet with Mike because he was a brilliant preacher, scholar. And so the idea that they were peers is. Is technically impossible. Were they friends? Did they do fun things together that friends do? I'm sure that they. They did. But again, if he were the plumber, they would not have been in that relationship. 88 01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:08.000 Yeah, they didn't just go to the same church. 89 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Exactly. 90 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:24.000 But they're not just attending the same church. They're in a very particular environment where he has this leadership, pastor relationship, high leadership, I mean, apostle, could I say? I mean, I don't know what he was considering. 91 01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:37.000 Not in that. If anyone played the role of the apostle would have been John Kilpatrick, though he would never use that terminology. He was the leader among leaders. There were four principal leaders. John Kilpatrick was the primary leader. The buck stopped with him. 92 01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:47.000 Yeah. And his relationship with them was not. It's misleading. Yes, they went to the same church, but it's misleading to couch that as the Definition of the relationship? 93 01:12:47.000 --> 01:13:15.000 Yes, without a doubt. And then it moves into inappropriate behavior where Mike is uh, uh, calling Ray on the phone and then he's saying, hey, Mike loves to share good news, you know, ministry. He's always got a, there's always a breakthrough, there's always a new opportunity and a new book being written. And so it started um, with, with Mike calling Ray. But then he would say, hey, put Kim on the phone. And then it ended up with Mike just calling Kim and then emailing him back and forth. 94 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:42.000 The following is an excerpt from Ray's testimony on BrownWitnessReport.com page 13. Ray says, I was getting really tired of so much of Mike's imposing on a daily basis. I began expressing my uneasiness to my wife. Mike would call on the phone and talk to me, sharing some good news about a breakthrough in ministry. And then he would say, put Kim on, let me tell her. It seemed harmless, but eventually Dr. Brown began to call Kim directly. There was too much of Mike in our lives. 95 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:48.000 And then in the interview, it's like we're all inter, you know, everybody's emailing everybody, Nancy and Ray and all of. 96 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:58.000 Us emailing back and forth. When I'm writing a new book, sending it to the husband and wife, they're resending me. Their comments and Nancy's, hey, I heard from them today. You know, because we're just interacting constantly. Nancy would email the husband, you know. 97 01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:15.000 But Ray's like, no, I never emailed Nancy and I know Ray, I know Ray and Kim personally. And um, Ray actually ended up reaching out to me. Uh, I hadn't seen him in 25 years and he ended up reaching out to me in December. And the reason he reached out to. 98 01:14:15.000 --> 01:15:39.000 Me, hey guys, Mike Winger cutting in here to add some needed information for you to have. This is not just a he said, she said thing. This is all very important. The reason why Ray reached out and decided to open his mouth and speak publicly about this issue for the first time in over 20 years is because he found out that Michael Brown had told Chris Bennet. According to Chris Bennet, and I do think he's telling the truth, that he portrayed this discovery that Sarah made where she found this yellow pad with writing that was erotic in nature. He portrayed this discovery as though it was one sided, as though it was coming from Kim to him. And he just wrote it down. I'll quote from the article, article here. Brown reportedly claimed that she said something inappropriate that caught him off guard. So he wrote it down. This implies that he is just an innocent guy who is, you know, trying to do the right thing. Um, this is very far from the truth and it creates a very false impression in the mind of those who hear it. There's multiple people that he gave this impression that it was a one sided thing because he didn't give any other details other than what he said about that. So this caused Ray to reach out and he is now public on brownwitnessreport.com his statements are there and I think that they're very relevant and they're not alone. There's many witnesses to corroborate the fact that Mike Brown's just not giving consistent and honest answers. 99 01:15:39.000 --> 01:16:16.000 When the first article came out that Kim, his wife, wrote something, said something to him that was inappropriate and he wrote it in. And by the way, if you listen and read to every different answer Mike has given for his relation with Kim, they can't all be true because he told, uh, Mike Labanovic, also an elder and leader in the fire movement. Uh, he told Mike when he confronted him in 2023, he said, yes, she wrote me something that was inappropriate. So I printed it up and I showed it to Nancy, his wife, and we were going together, confront her that it's just all these different stories. 100 01:16:16.000 --> 01:17:02.000 I confronted him on this, Ron, in our phone call, I confronted Michael on this and I said, hey, you lot, you, you misled Mike lebonovic. Because he was like, give me an example of me using half truths to mislead people. I was like, you made it look like this was just her corresponding to you, her writing to you something inappropriate and you recording it for accountability purposes. That's what you made it sound like. And he, he told me his defense of this was that, um, and it's. I have. The whole conversation is recorded because he wanted to record it so he can share the whole thing if he wants. But his response to this, um, and if he doesn't, that'd be fine by me. But his response to this was that he didn't share more with Mike because he was defending the honor and protecting Kim and everyone else. 101 01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:04.000 How does that protect Kim? 102 01:17:04.000 --> 01:20:25.000 So my pushback was. That doesn't make sense. Because the person who you put on the hook was her and the person you got off the hook was yourself. Your version of defending her is you defending yourself. This is. And it was like talking to a brick wall. Um, I'm going to read to you guys from the actual audio transcript, my transcript that I've written up of the conversation I had with Dr. Michael Brown, he asked me not to share the audio unless one of us had misquoted it publicly. It's kind of a strange request. It implies that we can quote it publicly but not play it publicly. And I agreed. And so I'm going to honor that. I confronted Michael Brown about Mike lebonovic specifically, and I said, you misled him with a half truth. His response was, I said as much as I could say without dishonoring spouses further, but always consistently, I replied, what I hear you saying is you were trying to protect her and other people, and so you shared only certain parts of what happened. But the thing that's inconsistent there is that the parts that you shared were the parts that made her look bad. Michael Brown says, no, never. The piece of paper was what everyone asked me about because that's what Sarah found. So that's what I responded to. I replied, the parts you shared was that she wrote to you content and information that was inappropriate, and then you didn't share. The part you didn't share is that you also corresponded to her in similar ways. Mike Brown, then I think in this conversation, he's nitpicking on terminology, so I tried to dodge it real quick, but he says, we didn't correspond. That's the first thing I said. Whether it's verbal or phone, you interacted. So I don't want to argue over the definition of words. The part that you shared made her look bad and brought embarrassment to her marriage, but it didn't. It protected you, not her. That's my point. It's not consistent with what you're telling me right now. Mike said, first, I was asked what was on the paper. Mike, I was asked, and I said as little as I could so as to protect her while telling the truth. And it was not up to me to say anything more than that, that we had sinful, uh, emotional tie, that we said sinful things to each other. All I was asked was what was on the piece of paper. And I answered honestly. I replied that she shared sinful things to you, but not that you shared them to her. That's what that sounds like. That sounds like you're protecting yourself and not her. Now, uh, the conversation continued to go on. Eventually we come back to this, and I said, to portray the story as though she was someone who was inappropriate towards you and you were someone who was trying to create an account record of it is misleading. Mike says, well, that's the truth. I replied, it's a half truth that creates a deception. Mike says, in Your mind? In my mind, I'm trying to honor spouses and do the right thing. I replied, well, her husband Ray did not feel honored. That's why he came forward. He felt like it was the opposite. He felt like you were protecting yourself and throwing her under the bus. Right. And he said, no, that's not what happened. And he has a different account of why he thinks Ray came forward. Our phone conversation lasted for over two hours and it's one of the reasons why I'm making this video now. This is actually really important that the recounting of what were the details of written on this thing and how he answered objections. It wasn't that he exactly lied. It was that in many cases he shares just enough of the truth to put a lie into the mind of a person who's listening to him. Um, and that is what happened, I think, with Mike. 103 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:38.000 Well, it was, it was Kim's husband Ray who wrote, um, and I'll get back to Ray in a minute. But he wrote just in. Uh, we made a YouTube video where I read a letter from him and a letter from their daughter Jordan. 104 01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:41.000 I'll link that below. It was really good, by the way. I'll link it below. 105 01:20:41.000 --> 01:21:56.000 Uh, please do, because it, I mean it's just heartbreaking to hear, particularly from Jordan, the daughter. But, um, Ray writes in there something like, Mike knows how to tell a truth, but not the truth. And that's what happens here is, you know, Mike will tell a truth. She said something, but not the truth. And I said something too. You know that. So. And uh, like you said, it doesn't defend her, it defends him. But in terms of telling. Oh, uh, getting back to Ray. So the reason Ray got in touch with me is because the Mike appeared to throw her under the bus. Ray would have gone to his grave. M happy to never bring up this horrible issue in, in his marriage. And him and his wife, uh, they reconciled beautifully. They lived another 20 plus years together. Uh, children, grandchildren, uh, and I know some of them, uh, I don't want to go into more detail, give away any identity, but they're dear, sweet godly people. And um, um. So when Ray saw that Mike was bespoke, besmirching her name, she passed. I didn't think I make that clear. She passed about two years ago. That's when Ray got a hold of me and he said, I have to defend my wife. 106 01:21:56.000 --> 01:22:03.000 The following is an excerpt from the letter that Ray sent to Ron in response to all the stuff that Michael. 107 01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:34.000 Brown has been saying to Me. Though in the present, the most vicious twisting of perceptions is his explanation of the infamous nightstand notes. The evil embedded in his nuanced psyche is encapsulated within his short and simple response. Quote, she said something inappropriate. That surprised me, and I wrote it down. He had the audacity to accuse Kim of being the aggressor, all while making the claim that he wanted to protect me and my family. 108 01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Not only did Dr. Brown say this to Chris Bennett years ago and to me personally, I can also say and show you that he said this recently on the absolutely horrific Mercy Culture podcast. 109 01:22:47.000 --> 01:23:06.000 But her participation, it changed the tone of things. So I had written down some inappropriate things that she had said to me. Again, I'm guilty of my part. She's guilty of her part. Just if someone accused me, oh, you tried to initiate this or start this. I had just written it down. Somehow Sarah was rummaging through our drawers. Found that. Um. 110 01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:08.000 So this is inappropriate things that Sarah. 111 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:09.000 Had said to you? 112 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:09.000 No, no, no. 113 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:11.000 That's the previous relationship. 114 01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:13.000 There's never an inappropriate syllable between Sarah. 115 01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:15.000 And me with a married woman. 116 01:23:15.000 --> 01:23:30.000 Right, Kim, to me, right. That I was surprised when she said them. Um, and then I wrote them down. I mean, I flushed them out of my mind all these years now, but I wrote them down in case anyone ever said, well, you tried to initiate this or start. It's like, well, actually, there's a whole other side here. 117 01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:58.000 And so when we talk about Mike telling a truth but not the truth, it gets worse. This is the part that is so egregious. So when Mike says, uh, when we met, I mean, he knows this. That's the thing. That's crazy. He knows what I'm about to tell you, and he didn't tell Heather. Maybe Heather knows it, too. I don't know. But he had, uh, very important information that would not have made him look good, and he held it back, as far as I can see, to save himself. 118 01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:16.000 We got to know each other, uh, in that context, and we were peers. I was Mike. I was not Dr. Brown. I was not her pastor. I was not over her spiritual. I led the school of ministry. She was not a student in the school. And, um, we became friends, Nancy and I, and became really good friends, and we started to hang out a lot. 119 01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:52.000 Because the fact of the matter is, he was her pastor when the abuse took place. He was her senior pastor. So he is correct when he says, when we met, we were both part of the same congregation. I was. I was the president of the school. She Wasn't a student of the school. I don't agree that they were peers. I think that'd be impossible, but technically correct. But there was a split. Mike was fired from his job and then he started a school right down the road within, within a couple weeks. And, and that, uh, that's a big part of his defense. He was just so burned out from going through the split. 120 01:24:52.000 --> 01:25:14.000 What happened again, no excuse, but in this same burnt out state. So I was physically burnt out. So I would go 70, 80 hours, 70 to 80 hours a week of ministry related stuff. I was physically burnt out. If you've been through a split. So emotionally I'm burnt out. And we were now under hellish financial pressure. I, uh, was in the worst, most burnt out state of my life. I mean, I told him I was struggling and burnt out. 121 01:25:14.000 --> 01:26:08.000 But what he doesn't tell, and this is just dishonest. There's no other explanation for this other than that he was misleading Heather's shot and misleading you. Misleading the body of Christ, not letting them know that by that time he had been fired, started a school, and they started Fire Church. Mike was the senior leader of Fire Church. I don't know if he called himself a pastor, but he was the lead elder. Nobody would deny that. It's, it's written in places that he was the founder. Uh, and they started going to that congregation. And in fact, it was right around the time May of 2001, that they started going to the congregation. And it was later on that year In, I think August 2001, that Mike convinced Ray to come and work for him. 122 01:26:08.000 --> 01:26:22.000 So he's in a spiritual leadership role. And this is before the relationship starts to move inappropriate when he becomes in the leadership pastoral. Well, I mean, he already was in a leadership role. 123 01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:42.000 That's exactly when the relationship became inappropriate. If I had to guess, I would say it was sometime in the spring of 2001. And it progressed verbally, uh, and online. When did it become erotic? Probably not until the first fall of 2001. At the time that he was hiring Ray. 124 01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:59.000 Yeah. And the thing I want to highlight is in the interview he talks about when they met. He leaves out the details that would establish the real nature of their relationship and that he was not only a spiritual leader to them, but then eventually a boss, an actual boss, uh, an employer to the husband, senior pastor of. 125 01:26:59.000 --> 01:27:09.000 The entire family and boss to Ray. But the thing that is so egregious about Mike hiring rate at that time. Let me just play this clip for you and it will Be clear was. 126 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Just every day was because we're in the same city now. We have two schools. So if you've been through a split, so emotionally unburnt out. And we were now under hellish financial pressure uh, because of the split. And, and we still have the staff and the school, but we've got half the income. And um, and we were building a house. We didn't have money for that. Our staff is not getting paid. Everyone's sacrificing together. 127 01:27:31.000 --> 01:29:42.000 Yeah. So he, he's the context of him sharing that. I always want to give as much context because as what they took me out of context in that video. The context is he's saying why he was in a weak state. Um, the split was a hellish thing. I was, I was on the other side and it about broke me. I would wake up at five in the morning with my heart racing. It was hellish. Um, but on the other side, you know, the appearances that they were giving is that life was great, that, that they're, they're moving on with their new school and life is perfect. And uh, but apparently it wasn't. And he's saying that they were under a hellish financial burden and, and he was personally burned out which led to him doing those things. Um, but he says they had no money. Uh, and he mentions his house that he was building. It was, it was, you know, some have referred to it as a mansion. So they had, you know, no money to, to pay salaries. They're still. And Mike understand. I don't believe at that time Mike was paid by the school. He had a very vibrant ministry. This is on the heels of the revival. So he had invitations. He was probably out every weekend, you know, preaching in, bringing funds in. Um, but they had no funds to pay the staff. I have friends whose children have told me they went without food. They could not buy groceries. You know, nobody starved. You know, people were generous, but they literally didn't have money to pay. And it's during that time that he hires Ray. So knowing that we know now that Mike is pursuing Ray's wife, he's now her senior pastor, which makes it clergy sexual abuse. Mike leaves that out because he doesn't want you to know that. Very dishonest. Uh, and then in the midst of that he hires Ray. So now Ray is his employee and he pays him a market worthy salary without fail every single week. Ray had no idea that other people weren't getting paid. He only found out that later on. Uh, but. And he says that the job was undefined he did not know what he did, and he finally quit before the end of the year. He felt so weird about the job that he quit. But it would appear to anybody with common sense that Mike brought him on to keep him closed because of his relationship with Kim. 128 01:29:42.000 --> 01:30:18.000 That's deeply disturbing. Um, when you're. You're potentially here, the, the. What it looks like is the use of what are way too limited ministry funds in order to employ somebody because of some weird personal agenda that he has to create relationships and connections for himself. Um, the guy has a job. He's like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing. Why am I here? And he's getting paid when other people aren't. He's actually. It sounds like he hired Ray while they're at a low point, not able to pay other staff. So he's got other staff he hired. 129 01:30:18.000 --> 01:30:25.000 It doesn't sound like that that was the case. I mean, that's a fact. Mike shares that out of his own mouth. We couldn't pay staff. 130 01:30:25.000 --> 01:30:28.000 Yeah, that's. 131 01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:29.000 Uh. 132 01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:36.000 Well, we all know what it looks like. And so to couch it as a peer to peer relationship is, as you said, misleading. That is a lie. 133 01:30:36.000 --> 01:31:09.000 Yeah. And then if you, if you actually go and read Ray's letter or listen to me read it, you know, he says that because they stayed friends for a while, they, they. I won't get into the whole how. How it was because there's two different versions of everything. Um, but after it was all over, they tried to make. They forgave each other and they tried to maintain relationship. Mike should have, by all accounts, gone to, uh, to his eldership and confessed. Uh, but it's. I won't go to the point in the video, but there's a point in the video where Mike says leaders are split on this. 134 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:24.000 Yeah, he said that. He said some people thought he should confess and some didn't. You know what? There's a clip. Maybe I'll find this clip and I'll insert it here for people to hear. But there's a clip where he talks about, if you have a soul tie, one of the things you have to do is tell the people you're accountable to about it. 135 01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:47.000 You have to be utterly ruthless with a soul tie. You have to tell those that you're accountable to or that you're close to. Like, if you're a married man and you had a soul tie to, uh, another woman and you got emotionally bound up with her, you have to tell your wife, a, uh, spiritual leader, you have to tell that person we can have no more contact. You ask God's forgiveness. 136 01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:55.000 So he specifically calls out a soul tie and says, this is what you have to do. Here's the process you have to do. So he's not confused about the issue until it's applied to himself. 137 01:31:55.000 --> 01:32:14.000 When everything's theory, it's so much easier. When James, chapter one talks about rejoicing in trials, I. Every time I read that, I get this warm feeling inside of me until I'm actually in a trial. And it's a lot more difficult. So. But getting back to that point, the idea that leaders are split. 138 01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:30.000 I have discussed this, Heather, with many leaders, and there's a division plenty say because there's no physical adultery. You handle it the right way. It's nobody else's business. Why bring this to wider attention? Others, uh, have said no. It's imperative that the other leaders were involved. 139 01:32:30.000 --> 01:33:32.000 I would. I would challenge Mike. Can you show me those leaders who are split on this? Because it's now been almost a year, and I've not yet met one leader who believes that you could have a sinful soul tie where you get into erotic speech with a woman where, according to the husband, Mike has confessed to this. You. You demanded that she not sleep with her husband, and you pressured her to meet you somewhere privately. I don't know anyone who says that you can go through those things and not take it to leadership. But you're 50%. I have not met anybody on the other 50%. And I just have to suggest that maybe you're making that up. Maybe that is just completely made up. Because if you look at all my emails, uh, between him and I, it's always, you know, every leader I talk to tells me this, and it's always what he wants to hear. You know, even a lawyer I talked to told me this. And it's either that he's setting them up by downplaying what has happened, or he's just not being honest. 140 01:33:32.000 --> 01:33:37.000 Right. I think that's a good. I think that's a good summary right there. One or the other. 141 01:33:37.000 --> 01:34:19.000 So clearly, this is clergy sexual abuse. This is somewhere a member of the clergy, the senior pastor of the congregation has now hired the husband. And, uh, that means that every week their paycheck is dependent on the generosity of that employer, who is also the senior pastor. So when you talk about clergy sexual abuse, you're talking about the power differentiation. So if there wasn't one when they met, when they were quote, unquote, peers, which I don't believe that was possible. They, they're certainly not peers. Now Mike is the employer and he is the senior pastor. And what makes this so egregious is that he did not tell heathershot that information. 142 01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:24.000 Mhm. Yeah. It's misleading. Very, very misleading. 143 01:34:24.000 --> 01:34:30.000 So going. It's not just misleading, it's misleading to his own advantage. It's getting him out of jail. 144 01:34:30.000 --> 01:35:04.000 Because what he wants to do, it seems, is get away from the idea that this was him, him, uh, doing something wrong in relation to his ministry position. Right. That this is clergy sexually abusive misconduct. Which is, which is actually what the investigation concluded. It was, quote, sexually abusive misconduct. To which his elder board responded. We reject that phrase and substitute our own and we'll just call it leadership misconduct. Because they, this is part of the damage control thing. It's just, just face up to the music, deal with, deal with what it is. 145 01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:48.000 When I had the opportunity to meet with uh, a couple of the people on that board, I said when you change those words, you, you deleted the significance of Sarah as a person person. Because leadership misconduct can be a lot of different things. But clergy sexual misconduct, uh, or sexually abusive misconduct rather, uh, that is something that is done to another person and it was done to Sarah by changing that. It was, it was dishonoring and disrespectful. Um, they didn't agree with me, but we, we had a very honest open conversation getting further along in our discussion number three. So, uh, I'm going to play a clip from the interview. 146 01:35:48.000 --> 01:36:09.000 Mutual. Me responding to her emails, her responding to mine. And I had all my walls up as a leader, you know, meet together privately, but emails I didn't have a wall for like phone calls, meetings. I did, but. So we just got drawn in emotionally and it ended up just being a very intense, uh, emotional affair. 147 01:36:09.000 --> 01:38:01.000 So you know, I don't want to make fun of somebody who is, who is, you know, grieving over their sin. I don't know, uh, I don't want to judge that. I'm not going to say anything more about that. The concern I have is that if that, if that ended, if that affair ended in uh, February 2002 and he has broken over the fact that he did not have a wall for, he had a wall for physical, you know, I guess the Pence rule, you know, don't meet in the same room as a female alone. Uh, he understood that rule, but he didn't have. And I get that. I have, listen, I. Females text me and it's different. You got to make sure it doesn't move, you know, that you're really talking about something that you're supposed to be talking about and it's not, you know, you know, personal. So the problem is it doesn't line up with, with the history of everything that happened. Like, for instance, um, uh, he didn't have his walls up for physical, uh, for being with women alone. Sarah writes this in the Brown witnessreport.com m the one who condemns so many for a lustful eye, who screamed from the pulpit, repent of your sinful ways. The one who taught us to live holier than the day before, the one who preached revolution, the one who said being alone with the opposite sex was a sin and would get you kicked out of school. Yes, that Dr. Michael Brown was alone in his office with someone from the opposite sex touching my butt as I would exit his office. So this is afterwards. So that's why the crying is a little bit, you know, concerning because you, you actually went further. You didn't go backwards, you didn't get stronger. Uh, according to Sarah, you got looser in your willingness to be alone. 148 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:14.000 And, um, well, and, and multiple meetings alone and parking lots, which I was, I was. We'll get to come into that one later. Okay, we'll save that for later. But there's, there's other examples of this, of this meeting alone. This wall was not up, in other words. 149 01:38:14.000 --> 01:38:56.000 Right. And multiple witnesses saw, saw them alone in his office. Two people say they saw Sarah sitting in his lap alone in his office. Um, another staff member who is both, ah, close both to Sarah and Dr. Brown. Uh, she said the three of them would always be alone in his office and that she would also be alone in Dr. Brown's office during a hard day. She was weeping into Dr. Brown's chest. Not Sarah, this other staffer. And just the two of them alone in his office. I mean, highly. I'm, uh, sure she was going through a difficult time, but she recognizes now it was highly inappropriate. But the most damning thing that you were alluding to earlier is what happened at Walmart. 150 01:38:56.000 --> 01:39:12.000 Uh, yeah, but you met late at night at Walmart. Okay, hang on. I telling Nancy, hey, I'm, um, on my way home. Got to stop at Walmart. Do you need anything? So if Sarah want to talk, I said, hey, I'm heading over to Walmart. You know, she texted me, where are you? Said I'm heading over to Walmart. 151 01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:39.000 So the problem with that is that Mike is giving the idea that, that him and Sarah, first of all, the idea Of. I always put myself in the situation. I was part of that, that, that, that faculty group. And I'm trying to imagine myself at Walmart in a public place with a student, uh, a female student, you know, 20 years younger than me. I, I think I would be in big trouble. Um, but that's not exactly what happened. Let's listen to what. 152 01:39:39.000 --> 01:40:15.000 Yeah, this is. I, um, want to hear everything you're going to share, but this is way worse than he makes it sound. It's. I would rather her be in his office where at least you are surrounded by staff and anybody could come in, than at night in a parking lot at Walmart. And he couches Walmart like it's some public hub where people who know them are all going to wander around the parking lot at Walmart at night and see them there. But that's not a public place. That is, that is a private situation. Very much so. And it's nighttime. And let's just be real about human nature. A man and a woman at night is worse than a man and a woman during the day. It just is. 153 01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:53.000 And so, uh, according to Sarah, most of the time when she would arrive, he'd already done his shopping and they would sit in the car alone and talk. These are her words. Many late nights, he and I would be chatting on Instant Messenger. By the way, this is just six months or three months after realizing that he didn't have his walls up regarding, uh, you know, texting. So many late nights, he and I would be chatting on Instant messenger while he. At his office and I was at home. He would ask me to, uh, Very important here. He would ask me if you go and listen to what he tells Heather. It's. She asking him most of the time. 154 01:40:53.000 --> 01:40:56.000 That's how he presented it to me too. 155 01:40:56.000 --> 01:40:57.000 Right. 156 01:40:56.000 --> 01:41:17.000 She was like, I need to talk. I've got some problems I want to resolve. Oh, well, I'm, I'm on my way to Walmart, which I initially, in our first conversation, thought it was one meeting, one time at Walmart. And I was like, okay, well, one time she's in a crisis and you're like, I'm at Walmart, just meet me here. Um, not wise, but more understandable than like, how do you end up in Walmart? 3 times, 5. How many times do you think? 157 01:41:17.000 --> 01:42:18.000 No, it was according to it happened, it happened. It was a regular event. He would stay late at work and, you know, Mike works late, he writes a lot. And so he'd probably leave, I don't know, 9, 10. So and uh, by the way, I thought the same thing when he first told me about this. And he told me put his arm around her. I don't know why he told me that. Um, but he said, you know, they'd be at Walmart in a public place and he would put his arm around her and she'd be, you know, telling him about his family. He made it. I, I thought that that was one time as well. Um, I went back and reread it and it's a little bit again. Mike, very good with words. But um, I had the impression that it was a one time event because she was having family trouble. But this is Sarah. And again, Sarah, as far as I know, has never lied to me. Mike has lied to me a lot. He would ask me to meet him at the grocery store to go shopping. I would leave my house and meet him. By the time I got there, he would be done waiting for me in the back of the parking lot. We would chat for a few minutes in his car and then say our goodbyes. Sometimes it was just a. I want. 158 01:42:18.000 --> 01:43:07.000 You to read the whole thing. But I just, I don't want anyone to miss this significance of this. We are responding to public statements that are not true that Mike Brown keeps making in defense of himself. That's why we need to respond. Um, which is not nitpicking. This is about letting truth and accountability happen. Which is what was supposedly supposed to happen when a third party investigation took place that is elder border and rejected. So we're, we need to go through this. But he, with, with Heather on tape, but also with me. And you privately made us think that it was her who instigated these meetings and that Walmart was a very public location. Two things she says in her statement there conflict with that. One is he asked her to meet, not the other way around. And two, back of the parking lot. So he's deliberately parking away from the public, away from the people who would see them. That's, that's what that sounds. 159 01:43:07.000 --> 01:44:13.000 And that would be wisdom because if he's caught, that could be the end of the entire school. I mean his message was at such a high level of purity and holiness. I mean this is behavior that to this day, as the former students have found out about it, they're, they're just stunned because even for the ones who may have had issues with Dr. Brown, they just didn't think he was capable, capable of this type of behavior. So. But he's not being honest. Again, yes, he was, uh, by the time I got There he would be. Um, I'm. I. Forgive me for laughing. It's just. It's just so crazy. By the time I got there, he'd be done waiting for me in the back of the parking lot. I would. We would chat for a few minutes in his car, then say our goodbyes. Sometimes it would be just a hug, a smack on the butt, or a kiss good night. And she was clear to me that that would be a kiss on the lips. I never actually helped him grocery shop. These late night meetings happened a lot. So again, he led you to believe that it was one time? He led me to believe. At least that's what I believed it was one time. And, um, I'm pretty sure on our. 160 01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:42.000 Phone call, when I confronted him on this, I said, you led me to think it was one time. And she instigated it because of a family crisis. And he was like, well, I didn't say that. And I said, you led me to believe it. I'm being careful with my words, too. You did lead me to believe that. And then I said, how many times did you meet? And I'll have to check the transcript and I'll put up text or something to confirm if I'm getting this wrong here on the screen right now, but I think he told me three times. Maybe three times. So it sounds like, for her testimony, that it was a lot more. 161 01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:48.000 Yes. Well, let. These late night meetings happened a lot. Does that sound like three to you? 162 01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:49.000 No. Sounds like a lot. 163 01:44:49.000 --> 01:47:45.000 Uh, so, yeah, she said these things happened a lot. And she's got nothing to gain from this. She's not getting money. She's not looking for money. She's not suing anybody. She lives a quiet life in Texas. She's a good woman, married, loves her children. This has been a huge disruption to her life, but she came forward because it was the right thing to do. And, um, Micah, on the other hand, has a lot to lose if this information comes out. So that's kind of why I'm inclined to believe her. Um, but then she goes on to say this. Sometimes we would sit in his car again late at night. Once, fire elder and leader Keith Collins saw Mike and I in his car and became concerned. To be clear, any fire school of ministry student sitting in a car of someone of the opposite sex late at night would be disciplined and probably kicked out of school. Mike was the president, and I was on his staff. Mike has admitted to this encounter because there are two witnesses, me and Keith. But there were many more times that he would Call me to meet with him late at night. And this, and here's Keith Collins. He was so, just so you know, Keith Collins is. Because you'll hear about him later. He is an elder in this, this is a new school fire, church fire, fire school. And Keith is a faculty member and a, uh, an elder. So Keith wrote this on the same issue. Um, I confronted Dr. Brown 23 years ago due to the fact that it was brought to my attention that he was seen holding Sarah's hand in a vehicle that was the one that Chris saw, as well as the fact that he was with Sarah at Walmart alone, which was witnessed by Darla, that's his wife, and me. So this, this leader comes to Walmart and you know, I think he was getting paint or something and he sees in a parked car, Mike and Sarah. And he's shocked and he's stunned and he doesn't confront them right there on the spot because, uh, I wouldn't know if I would have been too scared. I mean you just don't want to be the person catching somebody in that. But eventually, as more people begin to talk about their relationship, he and another brother do talk to Mike about their relationship. And we'll get back to that later. So just to be clear, if I, as a faculty member back at that time I was 36 years old, if I was in my car in a Walmart with a 20 year old student or staff member, I think that would have been the end of my career there and maybe the end of my ministry. So Mike is constantly making light of these things. But, but these are serious issues. Okay, let's move on. And it kind of dovetails with the Walmart, but it has to do with uh, his assertion that everything was done in public on purpose because it's in public and people can see. Yeah. 164 01:47:45.000 --> 01:47:57.000 So if Sarah want to talk, maybe something's going on with her family who just wanted to chat. I said, hey, I'm heading over to Walmart. You know, she texted me, where are you? I said I'm heading over to Walmart. Um, why Walmart? Because that's the one place where there were people. 165 01:47:57.000 --> 01:47:58.000 It's a public place. 166 01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:02.000 If I wanted to have a secret meeting, there's like a thousand places. 167 01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You can meet me at my office where I'm at by myself. 168 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:25.000 Right, exactly. Or go. And we didn't have security cameras all over the, or, or any, any school where there's nothing going on. The whole like, well, you met at Walmart. It's the most innocent thing I call and say, hey, I'm on my way over to Walmart meeting. Uh, Sarah there? Need anything? It was, it was that. It's in my journal. You know, Sarah at Walmart, just, yeah, it's the most innocuous thing. 169 01:48:25.000 --> 01:49:48.000 So I'm gonna say it's not the most innocuous thing for a 46 year old married man, leader of a Bible school, being alone at a Walmart. In fact, here's what he wrote me. I actually, I forgot I had it right in front of me. In front of me. Um, when, when he addressed it back in October, it was the Walmart nearest her office. Sometimes if she had a rough time at home, she would want to talk with me. So I intentionally told her I would talk to her, talk with her at a public place. I would put my arm around her like I would a daughter. Idiotically but intentionally, uh, in public. And I would just say that if you're a student of that school and you show up at that Walmart again, we know now that according to Sarah, it always happened in the car. But even that, I don't know how Mike doesn't understand how troubling that is. If you're a student and you walk into that Walmart and you see a man that you love and you respect, whose motto is unto death, you know, to the ends of the earth, and he has his arm around a attractive 20 year old staff member, that's confusing, you're probably not going to confront him because it's horribly uncomfortable and intimidating, but what do you do with that information? So, um, not innocuous. 170 01:49:48.000 --> 01:50:01.000 Not innocuous. Not the most innocent thing. If someone was meeting with your daughter late at night at Walmart on a regular basis, sitting in the car and talking together, you wouldn't be like, that's gotta be like the most innocent thing that you can think of. 171 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:03.000 Yeah. And then, and then the other. 172 01:50:03.000 --> 01:50:10.000 Yeah. A married man who's older, who's a spiritual leader is meeting with a young lady late at night at Walmart in the parking lot. 173 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:18.000 But it's all intensified, Mike, because of the Brownsville revival intensity. Like we were the. 174 01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:52.000 I've talked to, I've interviewed on my own. This is not public. I've interviewed two people who were part of it. It. Okay, two different witnesses who share with me what the culture was like, what the environment was like. And so, yeah, this was to them, you can see it through their eyes. They go, nobody would have allowed anyone to do that at that, at that, especially him. And yet he was doing it. And he, uh, he was violating the culture that he created because it just. The rules just didn't apply to him the same way because maybe because he views himself as being that innocent. Um, but I don't think that that's true. 175 01:50:52.000 --> 01:51:58.000 Yeah. And she's also very clear that he was the one that called her. Quote, he would regularly call me or email me when he was leaving the office to go meet him at the store. And it was never because I needed to get out because of my home life. Now, he told you that? And he told me that. Uh, but Sarah says that was never the case. It was just the two of them hanging out. So, you know, this whole point is that Mike says everything was done in public and it was done in public on purpose so that everyone would see. But we know from Sarah and from others that it wasn't always in public. We know that there was other hand holding incidents that we'll get into. We know that Chris Bennett, when, uh, he saw the two of them in a stockroom as he was bringing books back after a ministry trip, saw the two in a full frontal hug alone in that room. We know that Sarah had unfettered access to his office by her own admission. And, and this other female staffer said that she was able to go in his office. In fact, she says that she would go into his hotel room on ministry trips and fix his hair. Just the two of them alone in, I mean, a hotel room. That is. 176 01:51:58.000 --> 01:52:00.000 She's fixing his hair. 177 01:52:00.000 --> 01:52:14.000 She's fixing his hair before he would go out and preach and making sure that his tie or whatever. To be clear, she's. I don't think they were doing anything that would be weird if there were other people in the room. It's only weird because there were not other people in the room. 178 01:52:14.000 --> 01:53:19.000 Yeah. Yeah. And just to remind everybody, the purpose of sharing this is twofold. One, to establish the truth about what happened. Because public statements are being made about people and the things they've gone through, in particular Sarah and Kim and Ray. But the second reason to do this is because it's part of a pattern of manipulation whereby he is gaslighting everybody. And I'm very sad to say this, I don't want to make this video. Um, and, uh, what's funny is that in the shots they were like m. I think it was the nervody. They were mocking people for saying, I don't want to make this video. As if they really secretly want to make. Like I'm sitting here like so excited. I get to do this, um, this is lame. This whole thing is lame. This is not a win, uh, at this stage for anybody. It's only a win if it helps to change the culture of COVID up and create proper accountability where leaders can't just stand up and proclaim their own innocence and then demonize the people that they've hurt. Um, if we can stop that from happening, it's a win. 179 01:53:19.000 --> 01:54:04.000 Right? And as I said earlier, if not for the fact that Mike just produced, uh, a video, uh, of him preaching and basically presents himself as a victim, you know, who has gone through this horrible thing, being falsely accused and, um, uh, but he was contrite and broken and wilderness experience. And now he's, you know, he's coming out of that, you know, as opposed to saying, just tell us what happened, you know, or don't talk about it. You know what, don't. Why even bring attention to it? So that, or else, you know, Mike, I would not be making this video. But moving along, let's go to the initial confrontation. Um, so let's play the clip on that. 180 01:54:04.000 --> 01:54:49.000 Two guys in our, among our leaders of staff come to talk to me and they say, we're concerned you had an affair with Sarah. I said, what? They said, we saw the way you're interacting. I said, yeah, uh, I didn't use all the best wisdom with that, but it was completely innocent. Just like with the daughter. Well, we think you had an affair. And now this other has this other dream. It's like, what, where is this coming from? So I said, investigate. So they appointed a couple. I'm not going to mention their name. They appointed a couple who was also spreading the word that we had an affair. And they call Sarah. She bursts out laughing. I've got all the dates. In November of 2002, they come to me, the couple, apologetic. We're so sorry. Sarah calls me laughing on the phone. I noted my journal, flabbergasted, like, what are they talking about? 181 01:54:49.000 --> 01:54:50.000 If. 182 01:54:49.000 --> 01:54:59.000 And I didn't coach her, tell her, don't say anything. Because I knew there's nothing to say. The worst she's going to say is, you know, he was a little too friendly. But that's it. 183 01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:06.000 He was a little too friendly. You know, he's touching my butt, kissing me on the lips. According to Sarah, um, secretly holding me. 184 01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:10.000 I always touch my friends on the butt and kiss them on the lips and meet them later. 185 01:55:10.000 --> 01:55:12.000 Only when I'm being friendly, you know. 186 01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:14.000 When I'm being really friendly, ones I'm. 187 01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:15.000 Not friendly with, I don't do that. 188 01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:43.000 With, but a little too friendly. So this is called minimizing language. For people who want to know, this is minimizing language. And when somebody's actually genuinely contrite, they do not use minimizing language. They fess up to what they've done and they don't even let other people do it in their presence. They say, no, no, what I did was not just friendly. It was inappropriate, it was wrong. It was sexually abusive, misconduct, if you want to be consistent with the report. But it was definitely, uh, not in the friend category. 189 01:55:43.000 --> 01:57:58.000 Yeah, and that's quite powerful what you just said. You know, when one who minimizes is not looking to be upfront and forthright. But the thing about just about everything he shared in that clip is not true. So first of all, um, uh, and when you have, you know, five or six people giving one consistent story, and then you have somebody else giving a different story, I'm going to go with the five or six. That's kind of how you do justice. So, um, in this situation, uh, again, I'll just read from my notes. A little bit too friendly. Full frontal hugs, touching on the rear many times kissing at least on the forehead. But according to Sarah, on the cheek and then, uh, on the lips almost every day, uh, meeting alone in a parked car. So that's not being a little bit too friendly. But they didn't accuse him of having an affair. He says twice in that clip that they accused me of having an affair with Sarah. And he was incredulous, I mean, just shocked by this. But again, you don't understand. You don't walk up to Mike Brown, uh, and I remember the atmosphere. I mean he was now the revolutionary leader. He, you know, left Brownsville and started fire school. And he was a bigger, bigger than life figure. Even if he was going through the worst moment of his life. And he was saying he was burned out for those around him, he was still, you know, the king. And so the idea that these two, uh, other leaders just came and accused him, it's. I can't even imagine that. But let's just listen to their own words. So here's Nils Prep, Niels Prip is, uh, one of those two. The other one was Keith Collins. And he says we never accused him of adultery. And again, this is written down, it's in Brown. What's it called? Brownwitnessreport.com we never accused him of adultery. Never. You have to remember this really wasn't a confrontation like everyone thinks it was us going him to share our Concerns about what we were hearing and what people were seeing because we thought it was inappropriate. Neither Keith nor I ever brought up adultery, uh, or an affair. So when somebody says you're having an affair, they mean adultery. And, uh, it would have been inappropriate for them to jump to that. But that's how Mike is presenting it. 190 01:57:58.000 --> 01:58:45.000 Right. Um, but this is another classic tactic. So the tactic is someone says, um, I think that you disrespected me. And then they respond by going, you're saying, I hate your guts. I can't believe you think I hate your guts. And now you're, like, defending them against this accusation you didn't bring in order to justify yourself. And all of a sudden everything's lost. Your whole purpose, the reason why you were confronting is washed away. And it's looked at as, um, a ridiculous. And they did this in the interview, the whole interview with Landon. Ah, excuse me, with Heather Schott, started by them laying accusations that, to my knowledge, nobody's bringing. No one seriously is bringing random stuff, uh, in comment sections. Not like there's witness reports. There's tons of individuals who've shared stuff. They didn't start with that. They started with these. 191 01:58:45.000 --> 01:59:15.000 Like, immediately I started getting calls from other pastors. This is September. Uh, Mike, is it true? Dr. Brown, is it true that you committed adultery with three women? I said, what? M. That had sex with three men? Yeah. No, of course not. Then I get another call. Is it true you commit adultery with two women and assaulted another? We hear that more are coming forward. Um, I hear you assaulted a young woman, but I believe in you. Uh, is it true? I'm confused. I hear you're blackmailing people. 192 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:27.000 I mean, crazy stuff, things that nobody's saying, so that then they could set this up as if those things aren't true. Then he must be. It must be that, you know, he's basically a good guy here. 193 01:59:27.000 --> 02:00:21.000 They call that building a strawman. You know, I made a video the other day about a certain minister, uh, from Reading, California, who said. Talked about the US I used to be a minister, but now apparently I'm a podcaster. Um, but I, uh, mean, I'm just so, you know, I'm an elder in a local congregation. Um, and so, uh, you're just an Internet guy. Yeah, I love these labels, you know. So, uh, he talked about every, you know, that the podcasters and the. On social media are saying, crucify him. Crucify. And I said, I said, well, who's. I don't hear that. People are calling for Accountability. So you're building a straw man. And the straw man is that this. There's a big, huge, massive people out there wanting to crucify these people of fallen into sin and they can never be forgiven. That's what he said. That the mob is saying they can never. And that is not true at all. 194 02:00:21.000 --> 02:00:43.000 There is no place for repentance anymore. When a leader fails, the crowd wants to crucify him. The apostle Paul would have never been able to be in ministry. If I'm a business guy and I fail, I get to keep my job. If I'm a pastor, we will will exile you to Mars and you will never be forgiven. 195 02:00:43.000 --> 02:01:09.000 The people that I know who are broadcasting on social media and bringing light to these issues are calling for repentance and forgiveness. Nobody's calling for crucifixion. He literally claimed that they need to be put out of society. That's what we are saying. God forbid I want Mike Brown to come into the light. I pray that every single morning M Lord, bring Mike and Nancy into the light. That's all I want for them is to come fully into light and to be free and to be forgiven. 196 02:01:09.000 --> 02:01:11.000 Um. 197 02:01:11.000 --> 02:03:23.000 So here what Mike is doing, it's a straw man. They accused me of something outrageous so it couldn't have happened. But they didn't. According to Nils Prep, uh, they never did accuse him um, of adultery after that confrontation or really it was an inquiry, you know, it was more inquisitive than accusative. Uh, but after that Mike was asking them if they, if, if they believed him. And Nils said, I'm not so sure. Something happened during that meeting that would have caused anybody to lose trust in Mike because he revealed something about Nils that was private in front of somebody else. Almost like I've got, I've got stuff on you. And Neil says I, I shared that with you in private, you know, several years ago. Like why would you share that? Right. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about. So he was that the fact that Mike would do that made him think that he's hiding something. So he said I'm not sure I believe your, your side. So that night, uh, I'm going to read, I'm going to read from his email that this is something that he shared, uh, with 1400 students, former students rather and faculty members, uh, back in December. That night I got a call. So in during the day him and Keith have this confrontation or communication where they expressed concern about his relationship with Sarah, uh, and they wanted more information. Mike Said nothing happened. If anything, I was just too friendly. And, uh, he did not buy it 100%. That night I got a call from Mike and Nancy around 10 o', clock, basically accusing me of trying to bring down the ministry, that I would single handedly bring it down. It was a serious problem for the Browns that I did not come out of that meeting telling Mike that I believed him. They were very upset with me and I was told, quote, I don't see how you can continue to be a part of this ministry. In other words, he was fired. Uh, I did tell them I was planning on leaving anyways, so it didn't matter. I told them I would finish up some administrative stuff and be done. So they fired him because they did not. I mean, that is not New Testament eldership. That's not how it's supposed to work. You know, if anything, you, you push it to the next level. But they got rid of it. 198 02:03:23.000 --> 02:03:36.000 Yeah. This is what happens though. Um, this is what happened with Todd White. He just replaces his, his leaders whenever they get too confrontive or too disgruntled. He's just poop new ones, new ones, new ones. It goes through different board members really fast. 199 02:03:36.000 --> 02:04:01.000 And what's sad about this situation is Nell's wife, you know, she, like, it wasn't long after that that they bring them up at the church to lay hands on them and send them out. Like it's a positive thing. Like they didn't get fired, that, like they weren't getting pushed out. And she was so hurt, on the verge of tears, she said, I wanted to scream and tell the students the truth, but. And she wonders today if maybe she should have. 200 02:04:01.000 --> 02:04:32.000 This particular lie is he lied about the initial confrontation by Niels and Keith, saying that, um, it was about him being accused of having an affair, which was of course ridiculous. And then he just says he was too friendly. He leaves out the fact that it was not about, that it wasn't the confrontation about an affair. Whether somebody thought that in the world, we're not saying nobody thought that in the planet Earth, but that wasn't what the confrontation was about. And then, because he did not believe Mike, which it seems to me he should not have believed Mike, um, he was fired. 201 02:04:32.000 --> 02:07:07.000 That is correct. You got that? Uh, correct. There's one more lie he told there, and that is that when there was another couple that was appointed to investigate, and when they called up Sarah, she laughed like, oh, that's just, it's so absurd. It's funny. And then she called up Mike and Laughed even some more. Now I just want you to imagine that you're a 20 year old female staffer and two grown adults. You know that Mike Brown has held your hand at least let's just take his version in the car one time and a few nights at Walmart and touched your butt five or six times. Even though she says it was my. Let's just take Mike's, you know, and then somebody calls you up that you don't really know all that well and they say, I am concerned about your relationship with Mike Roundley. I believe it is inappropriate. You're 20 years old, this person's an adult. You don't laugh at that point. You're terrified even if you don't believe it. I mean, only the most confident person in the world would laugh at that point and then call Mike up and laughing. But we know it didn't happen because that person was reached out to. I know her name. I'm not going to use it. Mike and I both know who it is and we both agree on who it is because he wrote down her name in his emails to me. So a friend, a mutual friend, got a hold of her and here's what she said. She said, um, uh, I did call Sarah privately on my own. They were never asked to be a part of an investigation. Um, and it wasn't with her husband, it was just her by herself. However, I did call Sarah privately on my own and I asked her why she left so suddenly because there were too many incidences that I saw that seemed inappropriate to me. We spoke face to face with Dr. Brown and Keith Collins in Doc's office. He denied all and tried to dump a bunch of guilt on us. We left it alone and left it in the Lord's hand, knowing that he, the judge of all of us, would one day deal with all of it, which is happening right now. Let's keep reading. And I have these. You can see the screenshots again. No one ever told me to call Sarah. Sarah did not laugh out hilariously when I spoke to her. She was actually very solemn and I did not believe her answer, presuming she didn't want to tell on Doc or was covering for Doc. Now, in that clip that you read, Mike says that this couple came back and repented and apologized. I don't know if you remember that part. 202 02:07:07.000 --> 02:07:17.000 And they call Sarah. She bursts out laughing. They I've got all the dates. In November of 2002, they come to me, the couple, apologetic. We're so sorry. 203 02:07:17.000 --> 02:08:08.000 And that's the Thing with Mike, um, he regularly has these stories about these people that he was at odds with, and they come back and repent. And I'm not saying that they're not all true. I know that other witnesses have said, well, no, not with that guy. Not with that guy. I know. With me. You know, we had a falling out of the split, and in 2004, we had a meeting where we met at his office, uh, at my initiative, just to see can we. Is there. Can we. Can we get beyond this ever? Uh, I didn't know. And I was told later that the secretary asked what I was doing there because, again, I was kind of seen as a traitor. And, um, he led her to believe, uh, that I had repented. And, uh, I had not. That was the whole thing. You still believe what you believe? I still believe what I believe. Can we be friends? Is there a way we can be friends? 204 02:08:08.000 --> 02:08:10.000 But no, past it. Yeah. 205 02:08:10.000 --> 02:08:24.000 Yeah. So he presents this couple, uh, as having come back to him and repented Again, you saw earlier, she said, we had that one meeting with. With Keith Collins and Dr. Browns, and that was it. And so. 206 02:08:24.000 --> 02:08:27.000 And this is the couple he says accused him of having an affair. 207 02:08:27.000 --> 02:08:28.000 Yes. 208 02:08:27.000 --> 02:08:39.000 Not had questions about a relationship, but accused him of having an affair. And then later they came back and repented of accusing him for having an affair. And what you're saying is the bookends, both of those things were not true? 209 02:08:39.000 --> 02:09:31.000 Uh, well, listen, uh, her friend emails her on the 4th of July just a few days ago and says, good morning and Happy Fourth. So now Mike Brown claims that both of you came back to him and apologized after talking to Sarah. Is that true? This is the response. Oh, really? No, that is not true. We never spoke to him about any of it after the first talk in his office when he blamed us. So, uh, this is just. You know, I don't have anywhere any way else to say it, but this is like my life with Mike Brown when it comes to issues where I don't think Mike, uh, just is lying all the time. I think when his back is against the wall and he's so good at it and so confident. Because if you go back. Let's just listen to that clip one more time with the knowledge that we have right now because he is so confident. Here we go. 210 02:09:31.000 --> 02:09:48.000 Two guys among our leaders of staff come to talk to me, and they say, we're concerned you had an affair with Sarah. I said, what? They said, we saw the way you're interacting. I said, yeah, uh, I didn't use all the best wisdom with that. But it was completely innocent. Just like with the daughter. Well, we think you had an affair, so. 211 02:09:48.000 --> 02:09:55.000 No, they don't think that they had an affair. That's not what they said. We know that now. And the guy got fired for not believing much like fair. 212 02:09:55.000 --> 02:10:05.000 And now this other has this other dream. It's like, what, uh, where is this coming from? So I said investigate. So they appointed a couple. I'm not going to mention their name. 213 02:10:05.000 --> 02:10:10.000 So the couple says they were not appointed. She called Sarah on her own. 214 02:10:10.000 --> 02:10:16.000 They appointed a couple who was also spreading the word that we had an affair. And they call Sarah. She bursts out laughing. 215 02:10:16.000 --> 02:10:31.000 They so again bursting out laughing. It just uh. A 20 year old girl gets accused of potentially having an affair. It's not believable. And Sarah says it never happened. And the woman says it never happened. 216 02:10:31.000 --> 02:10:36.000 I've got all the dates. In November of 2002, they come to me, the couple apologetic. 217 02:10:36.000 --> 02:10:45.000 And by the way, that is a micism. I got the dates, I've written it down. It's in my journal. Um, we're so sorry. 218 02:10:45.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Sarah calls me laughing on the phone. I noted my journal. I've got all the dates In November of 2002 they come to me, the couple apologetic. We're so sorry. 219 02:10:56.000 --> 02:11:29.000 Never happened. Never. I mean it's, it's believable. You hear him say it that way. But according to the woman, never apologized, never came back and did not believe Sarah. And she was right. Sarah will admit at this point that she was lying. Um, that I believe she was given a heads up by Mike that they were, would be calling and she, she says that she lied for Mike and the woman whose name we're not mentioning said she knew she was lying. So why would she go back and apologize when she knew that Sarah was lying? We'll finish, finish the clip real quick. 220 02:11:29.000 --> 02:11:47.000 Sorry. Sarah calls me laughing on the phone. I, I noted my journal flabbergasted like what are they talking about? If and I didn't coach her, tell her, don't say anything because I knew there's nothing to say. The worst she's going to say is, you know, he was a little too friendly. But that's it. 221 02:11:47.000 --> 02:12:32.000 Yeah, so it's weird that he says I knew that the worst she was gonna say is he was a little too friendly. But actually this whole thing is happening because of the stuff that she says. If all she said was he's too friendly, none of this would have happened. It was, it was the whole thing that triggered it was Sarah going, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna share what happened. Uh, and then him minimizing it and in some cases denying things that look like they happen. But I think what the message, this particular lie that we're talking about now pulls together the fact that there is witness after witness after witness after witness who is saying, no, that's not what happened. These different witnesses, their stories are consistent with each other. 222 02:12:32.000 --> 02:12:33.000 Mhm. 223 02:12:32.000 --> 02:13:05.000 Mike stands alone now in the interview with Heather, he talks and laments that all of a sudden, or maybe it was in my private call with him, uh, I'm getting the two mixed up. But all of a sudden everyone has a perfect memory. I think it was my private call, he said, everyone has a perfect memory. And I said, no, no, everybody doesn't have perfect memories. It's just that they all consistently keep telling the same story that disagrees with you. This is one witness against many. The biblical standard for establishing things that we should believe is multiple witnesses. 224 02:13:05.000 --> 02:13:14.000 All right, let's go ahead and continue. I'm going to play a clip here and um, then we're going to see if it's true. 225 02:13:14.000 --> 02:13:44.000 And you know, for people who say, well, who's the real Mike Brown? Who's the real Dr. Brown? I didn't publish any book in that season. 2001. There's, um, early 2002. There is no, there's not a single article I wrote then. In other words, it's not like people look at it. They throw your whole ministry into question. Basically want to cancel everything you've done. But the person that I said earlier, the one you heard preaching, teaching, that's the real me. 226 02:13:44.000 --> 02:13:50.000 Yeah, that's a, Let me just. That's just a weird statement. Um, you know, I'm trying to figure. 227 02:13:50.000 --> 02:14:40.000 Out, yeah, what is he, is he, he's worried here about people who want to cancel everything he's ever done. Because I don't want to do that. If you've been ministered to. Yeah, if you've been ministered to by Mike Brown. Hold on to that and rejoice in that. Thank God for that. And I'm glad that he was there ministering to you in those ways. That's wonderful. His work on answering Jewish objections to Jesus is still going to be something because I don't know what to replace it with. I'm still going to be like, I feel like I still want to reference this as a good resource. Um, I can't recommend it the same way I could have before. I can't just Be like, hey, here you go. Because I'm like, oh, this is now attached to a person who is ongoingly denying and manipulating a part of a cover up culture. But we don't need to undo everything he's ever done. That's an exaggeration to try to straw man what's really going on. 228 02:14:40.000 --> 02:15:32.000 What you don't get to do is to say, uh, this is the real me. Other people judge who the real you is and who the real you is. Um, I don't know. That's good English. But I know that my wife knows the realer me than most people who hear me preach. Preaching is probably the thing I do best in this world. It's a gift from God. I didn't train myself. God gave me a gift to be able to hopefully exposit his word and preach the word and teach the word and build people up. But I'm doing the thing that he's gifted me to do. The real me is, you know, if I lose my temper or if I, you know. So to hear somebody say the real me is the one preaching is a strange. Uh, most people say the opposite. But that's not the lie here. Uh, because that's subjective. There is a lie here is he. 229 02:15:32.000 --> 02:15:37.000 Says he didn't write anything. Yeah, I didn't write anything during that time. No articles and no publishing of books. 230 02:15:37.000 --> 02:17:20.000 Yeah. And as folks can see on the screen, um, he did write a book. It is called Revolution in the Church. Challenging Religious Systems with a Call for Radical Change. So let's just look at the timeline. So Mike is saying that in that timeline, 2001, 2002, he did not write a book, but this book was published specifically. I mean the date that is on Amazon.com is July 2002, which means it would have been written over that exact period, 2001, early part of 2002, in order to be published in 2002, probably being finished right at the end of 2001. And we know that it was written after 2001. Had already. In other words, he could have said, well, you know, I actually wrote it in 99. But because of the revolution book, I waited. You know, it was like the part two. The problem is in the preface it says this. On February 14, 2001, in the Leadership Team for Fire School of Ministry in Pensacola, Florida was meeting with Derek Brown, a dear fellow worker from England. As we were talking with Derek about our vision to see, uh, the Jesus revolution make an impact on our society, he made a simple but profound comment. Before there can be revolution in society, there must be revolution in the church. In other words, I got the idea to write this book when Derrick Brown made that comment, which was February 14, 2001. That means @ the very time that Mike is saying he was at the lowest point in his life, that it was a hellish financial burden, uh, that he was making bad judgments. Well, at the time that he said I did not write a book, he wrote a book. 231 02:17:20.000 --> 02:17:49.000 After this, I dug a little bit more and found on Dr. Brown's website, the line of fire.org that it records a list of his published works. In 2001, it records the revival answer book in 2002, Revolution in the Church, which was the July 1, 2002 book. And also in 2003, on March 1, he published Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Volume 3. The previous volume was published in 2000. All of this makes it very difficult to believe that he was not writing at the time. 232 02:17:49.000 --> 02:18:09.000 And again, this is a minor. It's not. This is not like a. Nobody's dying over this lie. It's just another in a pattern of. His defense is, look, I was so hurting and I was so broken during that time that I didn't. And I write book. You know, he writes probably a book every year. And he's like, and did I write a book? 233 02:18:09.000 --> 02:18:10.000 No. 234 02:18:10.000 --> 02:20:42.000 Except he did write a book during that time. And if there's an explanation, you know, Mike, we would. We would certainly love to hear it. But according to the book, it was published on July 1, 2002. His book Revolut Revolution came out on January 1, 2000. So it would have been during that time. Time, it seems. You know, Mike, before we head in, uh, to the next point, I just want to say something about this. This whole issue because, you know, and I know we've touched on this. It could come across a little petty. Why are you still talking about this? It just seems that God is doing something. And I've been meditating quite a bit on what is happening. I think a big part of it is New Testament eldership is not doing its job. So you have all these different figures, and I could mention a bunch of different names right now that are in the media, uh, where people are saying, hey, you did something wrong, unethical, maybe criminal, um, m. Maybe immoral. And so often these individuals are submitted accountable to a 501C3 board. And we don't see that in Scripture. We don't see, you know, Paul saying to Timothy, now, if there are accusations, make sure to go to the board, which are typically Friends of the principal, you know, uh, uh, or his family members sometimes. And I think that God is wanting to re energize New Testament eldership. So in the situation that we're talking about right now with Dr. Brown, you know, he was at one time he was the apostolic leader or the senior leader of, of the fire movement. Uh, but by the time all this came to light, he was not even attending, from what I understand, on a regular basis their local church or was, was in any way type of submitted relationship to the leadership. And the problem is, is that the grace to govern these issues, to speak into these issues, is not with the 501C3 board. The average 501C3 board is not thinking, okay, we might have to deal with sexual immorality next month. But in New Testament eldership, that is thing, you know, First Corinthians 5. Those are the types of things that God has given grace and empowerment to New Testament eldership. So in so many of these cases, the ones that you're investigating right now, you're dealing with boards and not with elders. So uh, yeah, I've, I've asked, I've. 235 02:20:42.000 --> 02:21:42.000 Tried to get a hold of churches too for situations. Um, and sadly in many of the situations we're talking about, the churches will not speak with me. So that I could say, I mean like, won't have a phone conversation. Not, uh, so I can make a video just to talk. I just say, hey, can we just talk? I don't need to make a video about what you say to me. I just, I have things that I want to bring to you for you to hold accountable this person that is at your church. And um, I rarely do this, but there's times where I've done it and I can't. I call it Steve Berger, who is the guy that uh, was harassing T.C. cannon years, years and years later and all this weird stuff. And I interviewed her and we played the clip where he publicly put her on blast. It's still on their YouTube channel. I reached out to the church three different ways. Please, can we, can I just talk to somebody there about this? This is a problem. Okay. And you guys still have the video where he's doing this? It's still up. It shouldn't be. Um, and nobody, uh, will even talk to me. 236 02:21:42.000 --> 02:21:43.000 Well, that would be. 237 02:21:43.000 --> 02:22:55.000 This is a failure of their eldership in their local church. It's some kind of weird protection of the elite. Don't even listen even when there's evidence that can be presented. So, um, that you're Right, this goes on. And it's even worse with the 501 because when you have these ministries, I mean churches are 501c3 2. But what I mean is when you have these ministries that are these parachurch ministries that are multimedia focused, which mine is, it is so hard for board members to hold me accountable in the way that my local church can. So I'm submitted to my local church, I've gone to my elders. I am submitted to you. I want you to know, I want you to hold me accountable. If you see me do something publicly that you think is out of line, you can come and confront me on that. And I'm going to listen. I had that conversation with several of the elders just so they know that that window is open. But you know what? These knuckleheads we're dealing with are never going to have those conversations with their elders. They're going to surround themselves with the estimate. And right when that happens and you can't get through the proper channels, you have to just go public. When it's at least it's a situation that requires it. You just have to go public because there's no other option. And that's, you know, what's happening in a lot of these cases. Yeah. 238 02:22:55.000 --> 02:24:03.000 Okay, so intermission over. Let's continue with our list here. So now I want to talk about a fellow by the name of Mr. M. Those are not, that's not his name. Um, and he was connected with the fire movement, um, at some point. So he knew Mike Brown and he had heard some of these rumors, I think from a couple different students, uh, at fire school. And he was concerned. And so in February 2024, he emailed Mike Brown and he said Micah. And it was primarily centered around, uh, the situation with Sarah, the hand holding incident, um, in the car, and then a meeting between Chris Bennett and Mike Brown that happened in 2020. And I know we've talked about this, but I just want to refresh everyone's memory. Uh, Chris Bennett was the young man who was in a car, uh, in 2000, uh, two that witnessed Mike Brown, uh, grabbing the hand of, uh, Sarah Monk, holding it for several minutes, as many as 15, as little as, you know, four or five depending on who we believe. 239 02:24:03.000 --> 02:24:05.000 Um. 240 02:24:05.000 --> 02:25:46.000 And then he saw them in a full frontal embrace that same evening when he was taking, uh, books out of the car. So as he gets older, his conscience is bothering him and he's now a 40 year old man and he has daughters and he's just thinking that's not right. So he gets a hold of Sarah Monk and to see if she could shed any light on the situation. Okay, so that's all I'll say right now. But this gentleman, Mr. He knew that there was this meeting between Chris Keith and Mike Brown in 2020. So that would have been, you know, just over five years ago. Um, and he also knew about the hand holding incident. So let's start there. So he calls Mike, uh, rather he emails Mike and he says, um, uh, he lays out what he knows and he's very gentle, very nice. And Mike responds with this. Thanks for reaching out. I really appreciate it. I'm sitting here with a big smile. Since what you've heard is incredibly far from the truth, I'll give you a call in a few minutes. Very glad to talk. I'm so glad you came to me. So, you know, uh, sitting with, you know, if there was no truth to it then I could understand why he might be smiling. Of course I would be, I would be terrified, um, if you were talking about me in those situations came up. So uh, he tells him he's got this big smile and they're going to have this conversation. So in the original actual email that he sent Mike, ah, you know, it was clearly a mixed bag. It was not all true. Uh, but the way Mike responds to it is like it's not that big of a deal. 241 02:25:46.000 --> 02:26:03.000 I think this is a really good example of the kind of thing that happens a lot with this whole situation that Dr. Brown does and that is there was some stuff that wasn't true in the email, some stuff that was true in the email. But the way that he responded was as though it was, it was a nothing burger. 242 02:26:03.000 --> 02:26:06.000 The whole, the whole thing. Nothing. 243 02:26:06.000 --> 02:26:34.000 Yeah. And that part is I'm smiling and all this, that part is he's putting up a front here. The reality is not that, the reality is that this was significant. This is important. Um, that's what the investigation concluded that they said they would submit to and did not. That that's certainly what multiple witnesses have reported. So this habit of. I'll grab onto, you know, whatever I can to spin into a conclusion that ultimately isn't accurate. 244 02:26:34.000 --> 02:26:51.000 So uh, Mike, uh, they talk on the phone and Mr. Records, uh, the phone call which was legal in the state of North Carolina. It's a one party consent. So let's just go ahead and listen. You can listen to the whole phone call online. It's in the report. Uh, but we'll listen to just a few clips. 245 02:26:51.000 --> 02:27:21.000 So we're coming Back from Alabama, uh, after having preached there, uh, and he and a bunch of other grads came around. I don't know, we had maybe seven, eight people in the van. And uh, we were sitting in the back and I grabbed her hand. I said, you know, this is in front of everybody. I said, she's like a daughter to me, you know, And I grabbed her hand. So that's the scandal. It was stupid in retrospect. Was absolutely stupid to do it, um, because she wasn't my daughter. 246 02:27:21.000 --> 02:27:29.000 Now what's interesting about that, Mike, is that he says that's the scandal. That's it's always, you know, let's play downplay. That's the scandal. 247 02:27:29.000 --> 02:27:31.000 You know, that's not the scandal. 248 02:27:31.000 --> 02:27:38.000 It's not the scandal. And in the interview with, with Heather shot, he says the scandal is that he touched her butt. 249 02:27:38.000 --> 02:27:52.000 Uh, the very worst thing. And this is like the infamous. Yeah, scandal. This is the thing. Uh, a few times when she walked away from my desk, I gave her a backhanded swat on her behind. This is amazing to have to tell the whole world this. 250 02:27:52.000 --> 02:28:48.000 But he doesn't mention that to Mr. Because Mr. Doesn't know about that. So uh, you know, he's minimizing. And the facts of what he shared, based on what we know now are, are not the real facts. So in that he says that he was in a van. Uh, they were not in a van. That they were sitting in the back of a van. No, he was actually driving his own Jeep Cherokee. Um, and there were not seven or eight people. And I imagine he says there are seven or eight people because it makes it look the more people. It was innocent, no big deal. I just grabbed her hand. But he didn't grab her hand, he actually held her hand. There's a difference between that. Technically to hold someone's hand. To hold someone's hand, you would have to grab it. It, um, but it makes it seem like he grabbed it, let it go, when in fact, by all accounts he held it from anywhere from five to 15 minutes. And to be clear, that was without her consent. 251 02:28:48.000 --> 02:28:49.000 Um, yeah. 252 02:28:48.000 --> 02:28:49.000 You know, this is all. 253 02:28:49.000 --> 02:29:02.000 This is huge. This is huge because it has to do with the pattern of spin, damage control. This is the culture of COVID up. When you're seeing behind the scenes that different. Depending on who you talk to, the conversation is different. 254 02:29:02.000 --> 02:29:03.000 Different. 255 02:29:02.000 --> 02:29:06.000 How much do you know? That's how much I will have to spend. 256 02:29:06.000 --> 02:29:07.000 Mhm. 257 02:29:06.000 --> 02:29:13.000 Whatever you don't know doesn't exist. And that has been the consistent pattern. Uh, it's it's, it's dishonest. 258 02:29:13.000 --> 02:29:40.000 Yeah. And if we knew nothing else other than this one thing, just um, imagine this. A 46 year old, bigger than life leader of a revival movement. Now fire, school fire, church, just out of the blue, without consent, without warning, takes your hand in front of other people and holds it for five to 15 minutes. Uh, I can't imagine what's going through Sarah's mind, how, how strange this must have been for her. 259 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:41.000 Yeah. 260 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:49.000 Uh, but, but again the whole way it's explained is, is not the way it happened. So let's continue like we would, you. 261 02:29:49.000 --> 02:29:53.000 Know, she grabbed me and give me a hug right here. But it's always around other people. 262 02:29:53.000 --> 02:32:10.000 So uh, again this, this idea that we heard shared over and over again in, in this phone call in his. The. That's always around other people. Always around other people. Um, but it wasn't um, always around other people. As we've already stated. When Chris got back to the office that day and was unloading books, he sees the two of them alone in a full frontal embrace. That this is a married man, 46 year old and 20 year old staffer hugging each other. Um, presumably alone. And then there's another very troubling story that, that has corroboration which was in New York City. And again, it's so uncomfortable talking about, I wish, you know, I would so much rather he talk about this and just be honest about it. Uh, I hate that we have to do this, but uh, they're in New York City, his wife is driving the car, he's in the passenger seat and there's four staffers in the back seat. And it's a ministry trip. Sarah is pushed up against the right door in the back. Mike is in the passenger seat and she feels, suddenly she feels her pant leg being tugged upon and it's Mike reaching back behind, you know, behind the seat, tugging on her pant leg so she grabs his hand. By this time they've held hands on many occasions. And according to Sarah, the only time it was public, the only time was in that car. Uh, every other time, which he said was many times, uh, was private. And then the two of them, and then the two of them hold hands while they're driving. While, while his wife is driving around New York City and there's six people in the car. And what, what they did not know at the time is that the young lady sitting next to Sarah saw it. She, you know, they thought they were hiding it. And, and by the way, when you do Things like this, you. You lose your sound judgment. And it was not sound judgment to hold her hand like that. But this other young lady whom I've talked to, who has told me her testimony, she said, I looked down, I saw them holding hands. And, um. So it wasn't always in private. And again, Mike's own words to Heather, shot quote, her office was not far from mine. She would come over, give me a big hug. That's not public. That's private. 263 02:32:10.000 --> 02:32:48.000 Right. And I want to acknowledge one other small thing, but it's an important thing. It's the deflection of. She would hug me. In his description of what happened. She hugged me. It's. It's her. She's the initiator. This is pretty common for the times that I've seen him interact on this stuff. Unless, uh, you know, that he initiated things, he'll speak as though someone else did. And that was also the way he dealt with the. The letters in the desk and the correspondence with that woman. Um, he initially made it sound to some witnesses as though it was her initiating it with him. And he was just responding somehow, you know? 264 02:32:48.000 --> 02:33:02.000 Uh, right. And as well. And we're going to see that in a text message that he sent to a pastor in December of 2024 after this became public. And it's a similar thing, but I won't. I won't share it now. So, uh, continuing on in their phone. 265 02:33:02.000 --> 02:33:22.000 Conversation, Keith and another guy came to me and said, was there anything going on with you and her? Anything ever happened? I said, what are you talking about? I said, what you saw was what happened. I was always in front of people. Yeah, just that. And, um, so they called. They did an investigation. They called her. She was laughing, like, what are you talking about? 266 02:33:22.000 --> 02:33:50.000 So we. We already talked about this earlier, one of the earlier points, but he's referring to Keith, uh, Collins and Nils Prep. Nils got fired for that conversation because he did not believe sufficiently enough. But again, it's that same thing. What you saw is what happened, because everything was done in public, except meeting in a car alone at night, many nights, according to Sarah, is another example of not in public. And, um, we won't continue with that one since we already talked about it. 267 02:33:50.000 --> 02:34:09.000 A grad in, um, North Carolina a few years ago, it struck him as his kids were getting old. You're like, well, that was just wrong. You know, in the van with us, we reached out to her, and she went over, you know, everything that happened. Told him nothing sexual, romantic. Here's the nature of this and that, etc. 268 02:34:09.000 --> 02:37:24.000 Okay, this is one of the more egregious misdirections. Again, there's truth to it, but it's not the truth. So he's referring to Chris Bennett. We talked about that earlier. Chris Bennett was. Was, uh, in the car, some holding hands. Eighteen years later, it's been bothering him. So he contacts Sarah. And the way Mike just explained it right there is that Sarah set him straight. Nothing sexual, nothing romantic. Uh, except that's not what she said. And I want to go through her, um, uh, some of these text messages. Okay, so in the first text messaging and what Mike is saying is that she set him straight regarding the relationship. And you will hear Mike say in the Heather Schott interview in, in almost every interview he's done is that Sarah said nothing sexual or romantic took place. That is not true. Sarah did say that it was not sexual, meaning they were not in a bed, but certainly there were certain things that were sexual. You know, touching, uh, one's rear end, etc. But she never said that it wasn't romantic. And Mike repeats that over and over and over again. All these text messages are public. They're on the Internet. And you go see if you can find any place that Sarah says that they were not romantic. So let's just read through this first text. Hey, Chris. It's been a long time, the relationship we had between her and Dr. Brown. At first I felt as a father, daughter, but that was not how it ended. Nothing sexual happened, but it was not what a married man and a single female should ever have. So, no, this is not her setting Christmas straight, that nothing happened. She says, uh, I left on my own accord and I've had no contact in about 11 or 12 years. I did not want to be there any longer, and I had to leave. I knew I had to leave. Mr. Cava, who's one of the leaders, called me up after I left and asked me questions, along with, uh, the other woman that we talked about earlier, who she supposedly laughed. Never laughed. Um, skipping down a little bit, I let others know that there was an inappropriate relationship, uh, that occurred, and I decided to leave, but never said with who. In other words, she protected Dr. Brown. She made it seem like it was with a student. I know that because she's told me privately. You and I were friends during our time in Pensacola, so I feel I owe you the entire truth. It is hard. Now, by the way, for all these people who are calling her a false victim, you have to understand, Sarah, at the time she wrote this in 2020. She wasn't running around saying she's a victim. She blamed herself. And, and, and she has never once said that she, uh, had no, uh, no fault. I would say that I don't think she had any fault. But, but this is what she says. It is hard to think about, uh, this because I feel betrayed, but also shameful. I know I was wrong. I left God after I left. And over the years I've tried to come back. So in that first text message, it's pretty clear that she is not saying nothing to see here. She's saying, it wrecked my life. I left there broken, backslidden. And what we had started off as father, daughter, but it ended up in something that a married man should never have with a single female. 269 02:37:24.000 --> 02:37:56.000 Here's the thing. Often where I think the lie is in the conversations I've seen, had, and heard from Michael Brown on this particular topic is not just in the words that are said, but in the belief that is created in the mind of the person hearing him. And so, yeah, okay, you could go back and try to argue that those words, in some cases, they're obviously total lies. Other times it's like, technically, technically you can defend what you said, the words you said, but you can't defend the belief you created in the mind of the person. 270 02:37:56.000 --> 02:37:57.000 Right. 271 02:37:56.000 --> 02:38:05.000 And that's where it's misleading. It's like, okay, yeah, you made them believe something that wasn't true. And you could be like, well, it wasn't romantic. Let's argue about the meaning of the word romantic. But the belief you created. 272 02:38:05.000 --> 02:38:13.000 Just to be clear, just to be clear, there's nowhere in those texts where she says it wasn't romantic. She says it wasn't sexual, right? 273 02:38:13.000 --> 02:38:27.000 No, I'm just saying Michael Brown could argue about the definition of the word romantic, and we could spend an hour doing that. Uh, or sexual. So let's ask about the belief that was created in the mind of the person he's on the phone with. That guy is now believing something that's not true because of the words you used. 274 02:38:27.000 --> 02:41:32.000 Exactly. And why not say, hey, let me send these text messages to you and you can read them in their entirety. Rather, uh, than give you this idea that Sarah was setting him straight that nothing happened. Because as you're going to see, Mike, nothing, uh, could be further from the truth. So she goes on to say, can I say, I honestly cannot believe I'm telling you this. This has been my secret for almost 20 years. So she's told nobody, everybody who's asked her about this. She by her own admission has lied about it to protect Mike, also understanding that you know, who's going to believe her over him. So continuing. Uh, and folks, you can. These will be on your screen. When I read your message, I took a deep breath. This is Sarah talking to Chris. I took a deep breath and thought I would tell you the same story that I told others. But for whatever reason, I decided it had been long enough. I really hope this helps you, Chris, with whatever you are dealing with and you can move forward stronger. So what we're seeing here is that she is telling a story that she has not told in 18 years. She's telling the truth about what happened to her. So when Mike says he wrote to my leadership back in November, she's a demonstrably false witnesses witness whose story just constantly changing. That is not true. She told one story early on which she admits she was lying about. And then in 22, when Chris came to her and said, was there more to that? She says, I can't believe I'm going to tell you, but I'm finally going to tell the truth. In the next text, Chris ask her point blank, he says, did you guys have other inappropriate contact besides the hands holding hands? And she responds, he did. I never did. And that's interesting because as you noted, Mike, it's constantly, you know, she was affectionate with me. I was responding to her affection. Not true. And as we stated earlier, he has admitted to touching her butt, which obviously could not have been her being the Gresser him, he's admitted to kissing her forehead. And there's no way that she could have been the aggressor in that. So she writes back, he did. I never did. He would hit my butt as I would walk by, but that was it. He would kiss the top of my head at first, then it was my cheek in the next text. And we're jumping through these. Um, but I'm just showing you her narrative in 2020, the first time she's telling anyone. So it made me feel uncomfortable when he would hold my hand. But my dad was never affectionate, so I thought, well, okay. Then I soon realized it was wrong and not what it should be. Uh, about two months after I left and she goes back to the phone call with John Cava, Mr. Kava called and asked if we had an inappropriate relationship or something along that lines. And I lied. I said no, meaning, yes, we did have an inappropriate relationship, but I didn't tell him. So what Mike is saying. 275 02:41:32.000 --> 02:41:46.000 And she Knew it at the time. This is important as far as the memory reconstruction garbage, that she knew at the time she was lying. She didn't say. I later realized it was inappropriate. She knew when she was, she was. 276 02:41:46.000 --> 02:41:54.000 She was coming to understand that. Particularly after she found the notes in, uh, in Mike's nightstand about his relationship with Kim. 277 02:41:54.000 --> 02:42:00.000 Uh, but that was, you know, 20 something years ago. This was not something that happened when you got a hold of her or. Or whatever. 278 02:42:00.000 --> 02:44:05.000 Right, exactly. Exactly. So, um, so she said no, that it was not inappropriate, and she said she lied. Mike called me and let me know that he would be calling and asking questions. Now why would you let her know? Why would you feel the need to let her know if it was, at the worst, it was overly friendly. I can't remember from something else that we're quoting where he said that the only thing she could have said, I was overly friendly. Um, but he felt the need to warn her that John Cava was calling. I had thought I needed to tell someone while I was there, but it would have been my word against his. I didn't feel anyone would believe me. He covered everything up with Kim. No one knew. So who would say he couldn't make them believe me? His word. His word over hers. Chris, you saw what you saw and you knew it was not right. You did the right thing with going to another leader. Hang on. Going to another leader. I'm sorry that you were not believed. And so this is referring to Chris going to Keith Collins, and then Keith and Nils go to Mike, and I don't know if we mentioned it earlier, but then Mike goes back to Chris and gently but rebukes him for. For not using Matthew 18. And, and I'll say it again, when we're talking about a leader potentially being involved in sexual sin, it's not Matthew 18. It's first Timothy 4, 5, 19, where accusations are brought to elders. Uh, but, but the, the point that I want to make here. We have one more text, is that he's trying to get M. Mr. To believe that these text messages were meant to say, no, Chris, you're wrong. Nothing happened. He takes one little sentence out of there, adds a word. Romantic. She said nothing sexual. Nothing romantic ever happened. She never says nothing romantic ever happened. In fact, she implies that something romantic happening and he is trying to create in the mind of Imar that Sarah is. Sarah and Mike, uh, uh, are together in that nothing happened when that is not the truth. 279 02:44:05.000 --> 02:44:17.000 Right. Right. Although it was. She was with him previously, but she was lying and now she's telling the truth. And that's what's changed. What's changed? She's now openly telling m the truth about it. 280 02:44:17.000 --> 02:45:29.000 Yes. And then she. Final thing I reached, she said, chris, I know for a fact that he had another inappropriate relationship with a woman at Brownsville. This is about when I started realizing I had to leave. So she finds the notes in the desk and she confronts him and realizes that this is not a healthy place for me. This is when I realized I started, uh, realizing I had to leave. I did confront him and showed him the notes I found at his house while I was house sitting for him. He admitted it, and I had a talk with him and Nancy, his wife. They said I was basically representing the entire student body and asked for forgiveness. This I said okay and never spoke of it to anyone. There was nothing in the journal about a sexual affair. More, uh, them talking and fantasizing about it. So, uh, Mike is trying to get m Mr. To believe that, uh, Sarah's defending him when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. She actually exposes him, uh, in both his actions towards her and this other issue with a woman that we now know as Kim. 281 02:45:29.000 --> 02:45:44.000 This is the same, um, meeting that he denies happened, right. Where she was being asked, forgive me, on behalf of the student body. Uh, he says that never happened. They never requested that. They never asked for that. 282 02:45:44.000 --> 02:46:10.000 Well, it depends who, what meeting. So when Chris confronts him, uh, later on in 2020, he just says he can't recall. He doesn't recall a meeting like that. Um, and that does. That doesn't really anybody knows. Dr. Michael Brown knows that he has a memory like steel. Um, you know, things are never fuzzy. Uh, but, but, but in later, in later, uh, you know, when others brought this to me, said it never happened. 283 02:46:10.000 --> 02:46:12.000 Yeah, I've seen him adamantly deny it. 284 02:46:12.000 --> 02:46:17.000 Uh, so, yeah, and here's. At the end of the day, he has lied to me. 285 02:46:17.000 --> 02:46:20.000 Yeah, well, me too. 286 02:46:20.000 --> 02:46:40.000 We started this, this program with point number one where he said to me that the charges were false. And within two or three days, I realized they weren't false. So Sarah has never lied to me. I have no reason not to believe her. Uh, and she. There's no. Why would she make this up? There's nothing to be gained, uh, by having the story out. 287 02:46:40.000 --> 02:47:06.000 Not only is it strange to make up, it sounds real. The thing is, the story has the ring of truth to it. Okay, yes, you are obviously dealing with a situation which the next rational, moral step is to tell people, you know, where you go, hey, I need to be held accountable for this. And so you have her here. She already knows to silence this moment. Will you forgive me on behalf of all the people? I don't want to know about this. 288 02:47:06.000 --> 02:47:07.000 This. Right. 289 02:47:07.000 --> 02:47:14.000 It just, it's just like a total, it's a total move that would happen in a cover up environment. That's, that's exactly what would happen. 290 02:47:14.000 --> 02:47:38.000 Yeah. And this is months before when, when Nils Prep did not sufficiently believe Mike, that Mike and Nancy called him up that night and said, you're trying to bring down the ministry. So it does seem that a lot of effort is, is, is being used to protect the ministry rather than to fully come clean over what happened. Okay, so the, the phone call goes, continues. 291 02:47:38.000 --> 02:47:42.000 He said, hey, it ends here, you know, walked out. 292 02:47:42.000 --> 02:48:42.000 Okay, so he's talking about his meeting with Chris. He's telling Mr. Uh about his meeting with Chris Bennett. And at the end of his meeting with Chris Bennett, he saying that, that Chris was satisfied. You know, hey, uh, you. The text messages show that Sarah had no issue. It wasn't romantic, it wasn't sexual. And um, and uh, uh, I'm sorry, what was. It ends here. It ends here. You know that, that. First of all, that's not what Chris said. Let me read to you, um, from the, the Firefly Report. Chris grew increasingly frustrated by Brown's vague, evasive answers. Toward the end of the meeting, Brown asked if Chris was satisfied. Chris responded, no, because you don't remember anything. Unsure of what to do next, Chris told both Brown and Keith, quote, I wash my hands of it. Now that is very different than it ends here. Like I'm satisfied. 293 02:48:42.000 --> 02:49:29.000 Uh, so misleading. Because this is a perfect example of what I mean, he could argue all day long. Well, he washed his hands of it, so he was done with it. So it ended there. He could argue for that all he wants, but everybody listening knows you lied, okay? You used words to manipulate the way somebody was thinking to give them a wrong belief. It ends here implies it ended resolved because there was nothing to worry about. In the end, once the truth came out, and the reality is it was the opposite. He was only more convinced that something wrong had happened. After this call, I've actually talked to Chris. Uh, when I was first looking into this months ago, me and him just, just uh, on our own, we had a whole conversation. And yeah, he was, he was, he was shocked to find out that, that Mike represented it as though him and Chris were on good terms over these issues. 294 02:49:29.000 --> 02:49:59.000 Ah, and by the way, what the Quote that Mike gave was, it ends here. Like I'm satisfied but I washed my hands of it. Was a non leader saying to a leader, I've done everything I can do, you know, for eight I. Eighteen years ago I confronted this. Now I'm confronting it again. You're, you don't remember anything. And he says that, he says I wasn't satisfied. Whereas Mike portrays him to Mr. As being satisfied. And um, okay, let's continue. 295 02:49:59.000 --> 02:50:08.000 And because I've so tried to set a godly example, I actually, I actually broke that crisis, man, I'm sorry let you down because like it did it hurt him. 296 02:50:08.000 --> 02:51:57.000 So, so Mike is concerned now about Chris. Chris is hurt and Mike begins to cry because he tried to set an example. And I asked Chris for a response to that and this is Chris's verbatim response. As for meeting with Mike Brown, at one point he did start to apologize with a few tears, but I cut him off and I told him that the entire student body, missionaries, etcetera, needed to hear the conversation we were having. As soon as I stopped him, the tears stopped. It was not a long apology with tears and weeping or whatever. It was short and it had no effect on me because I was thinking about the students in the sin. After knowing the full story from Ray, I see that he was only apologizing for the things he was confronted with. So, so Chris is saying no, it, I was not this, you know, wounded guy coming and he cries and he's feeling about me. Chris stopped him. He said stop crying. This is a conversation that needs to come to light. You know, you led a movement and everyone else needs to know about it. But I can tell you as someone who spoke to Mike, uh, you know, the last time in late October, he did not want this to ever become public. But as you can see, a lot of people knew about it. Chris actually took notes of the, the meeting with Mike Brown immediately sent them to Sarah the next day. And he's telling Sarah he, Mike admitted to all these things. So, so I contact Mike in October and he says not, you know, these are false allegations. Uh, but when Chris confronted him with evidence in 20, 25 years ago, he admitted to everything and some things he could not, uh, remember, which was again why Chris wasn't satisfied. So, um, just, you know, I know you've heard a lot about Walmart, but just one more clip on, on that. 297 02:51:57.000 --> 02:51:59.000 Because this was like I said in public. 298 02:51:59.000 --> 02:52:00.000 Yep. 299 02:51:59.000 --> 02:52:26.000 Like if I ran into her at a Walmart, I put my arm around her. But it was like Intentionally, in front of everyone. That's, you know, so that was the foolish thing, like, yeah, I can look bad. It's not good judgment. So that was just kind of the burnout after the split, for sure. That's, that's what grieves me the most. Like, that was just a stupid thing to do. It doesn't look right, but I stupidly made sure that, that anything like that was around other people. 300 02:52:26.000 --> 02:53:05.000 So he, so, so Mr. Doesn't know any of the backstory, so, you know, he's learning for Mike. So, Mike, now, now we know. We've watched the Heathershot interview where he says that he would meet her at Walmart. It was scheduled. He may have said it was her idea. We know from Sarah it was his idea. We know that they would sit alone in a parked car on a regular basis. But he's telling Mr. Quote, if I ran into her at Walmart, that, you know, that that is not what happened. You made plans to meet her at Walmart, but then he says, if I m. Plan to meet her, uh, I'm sorry, if I ran into her Walmart, I put my arm around her. So, uh, all very strange. 301 02:53:05.000 --> 02:53:51.000 Yeah. This is the, the fact that he brings up Walmart as the example off the top of his head. You know, some will think. I'm going out on a limb here. I think it's pretty obvious that this is most likely coming from the fact that there were Walmart incidents he was aware of and he was trying to minimize those. And so he grabs that as the example. But, yeah, everything about it was false. You didn't run into each other. You didn't just put your arm around her. You didn't do it actually in public. You did it in a parking lot, which is not what we all call public. This is not what we mean. When you say public, you mean around people who know you, not strangers. If, if I, if I go do something fishy in a bar with some woman, I could say it's in public, but if nobody knows me there, it's not really everybody. 302 02:53:51.000 --> 02:54:13.000 Ron Cantor, uh, jumping in real quick here. We had left out a clip, and, you know, Mike and I felt that it was very, uh, pertinent. So I just want to play it for you real quick. This is Dr. Brown talking to Mr. But he's talking about his meeting with Chris Bennett when, when Chris asked about why, uh, these things were not disclosed to other leaders. So, so let's go ahead and hear that. 303 02:54:13.000 --> 02:54:19.000 And he said, yeah, but you should have talked to all the leaders Back then I said well I talked to the guys, my closest friend, my pastor. 304 02:54:19.000 --> 02:56:56.000 I can't make exactly out what Dr. Brown is saying there but it seems like he's saying that he did disclose this to the guys and the guys would be the other elders, um, Josh Peters, Bob Gladstone, uh, M. Keith Collins, uh, uh, John Cava and others. And then he said he disclosed it to his pastor, his closest friend. Um, I believe I know he's talking about and I'm not going to say his name but that gentleman was not the pastor at the time. In fact Mike was the pastor. Mike was the senior leader. Uh, the person he's referring to is the one that was sworn to silence and that was his assistant at the time. Uh, when they moved to Charlotte he became the pastor and very effective one. Um, but at the time he was not, not an elder. He was not in that uh, in, in that realm of leadership by his own admission. So for Mike to portray this now 20 something years later to Mr. As if this fellow was his pastor, uh, is not accurate because of two reasons. Number one this gentleman only later would become the pastor of fire. But even then that was within an apostolic network and Mike was the senior leader of that network work. So I don't think he again I could be wrong here and Dr. Brown can correct the air uh the, the record but as far as I understand that gentleman, good guy, wonderful man, was never Mike Brown's pastor. In addition uh, this was never disclosed to the guys, the elders. That is the issue, that is the very issue that I brought up with Mike back in October is that you should have shared this with the elders. And, and he did not. And again he's telling uh Mr. This in 2024 but he told Heather shot in 2025 why he did not tell the elders. So he is now admitting publicly that he did not tell the guys. But Mr. Who had no way really of investigating and finding out. It was a very quick way to you know again in my opinion to, to end this. Yeah, I told the elders, I told the guys, I told uh, uh, my pastor, you know my closest friend but none of that is true. So you know that's more or less his phone call with M. Mr. And again you can listen to the whole thing in the online brownwitnessreport.com uh, it's just so you know when I heard that it was just stunning to me uh, having known now, you know, investigated and read the investigation and um, he was dishonest. He was dishonest with it, with this. 305 02:56:56.000 --> 02:57:05.000 Gentleman, very much dishonest with. That's the consistent pattern. 306 02:57:05.000 --> 03:00:40.000 Uh, continuing. Uh, and again, what we're doing is here is detailing, um, for lack of a better word, lies, falsehoods that were told in order. Uh, you know, Mike, you keep mentioning this culture of COVID up. Um, so in December, this is Pastor Matt, not his real name, but he is a megachurch pastor, uh, somewhere in the United States. So at that time, Mike was reaching out to a lot of different people, uh, through voice texts, through, uh, text messages, email, ah, phone calls. And he was pleading his case. He was telling his story, his narrative. And so one of those, Pastor Matt sent me the text message that Mike sent him. And in it are several. I mean, there's just no other word. Lies. So Mike. And this is written in mid December. This is after Mike had just published a video, uh, a video where he talked about his relationship with Kim and referred to it as an emotional tie. He referred to it to me as a sinful, uh, an unhealthy and sinful soul tie. Um, and so he makes this video, which most people who saw it were very confused by it because it was meant to be very transparent, you know, for the sake of full disclosure. And it was hard to really know what he was saying. Uh, here's the text message. I can only respond privately, not publicly, but I 100% reject the details of Sarah's account. The kissing on the lips most specifically. And her story changed dramatically from four and a half years ago when she shared everything with a grad. And that account of hers mirrors mine. Let's stop right there. So he says that Sarah's story from four and a half years ago matched his story. Now we just read that. Those were the text messages that we just read where she described being hit on the butt, kissed on the forehead, on the cheek, where she talks about, um, the fact that Mike and Nancy sat her down and had her forgive Mike for his indiscretions with Kim, which was an erotic, verbal, uh, phone and text message relationship. And she was some sort of representative forgiveness. And, uh, so that's what she details in that. And so Mike is saying that her story has dramatically changed in the past four and a half years. And I can tell you that the story she told me in late October 2024, it matched exactly what she told Chris in those text messages. There was only one detail that was different, and that was when she said that he would kiss her on the lips. One day she walked into his office. Her habit was to say goodbye to Mike at the End of the day, they worked together in the same office. She would come into his office and give him a hug and then she would go home. And this time she walks into his office, he's sitting down and she goes over to hug him. And she said he puckers his lips and so they kissed a peck. And then that became the tradition. You know, in addition to a, a, a, a, a hug, there was a, a peck at the end of the day. And also when she would leave his car, uh, uh, in those Walmart rendezvous, that is the only thing that has changed. So when he says her son story changed dramatically from four and a half years ago, that is a lie. It did not change dramatically at all. Only one detail I want to, uh, add. 307 03:00:40.000 --> 03:02:16.000 This is something he also said to me. This was part of the basis of why I started digging into this more because he pulls me aside at the ETS and he was like, yeah, she's totally changed. Her recollection is totally different now. She's remembering things she didn't even remember before. And, and then that led to, to the claims, the false claims about getting memory reconstruction therapy. And um, this, to me that, this is very egregious because what you're doing is you're grabbing influential leaders like this mega church pastor or, or me. You know, I'm, I'm influential and some people like that and some people hate that. I find it very intimidating, but I want to be faithful with it. And, and you're lying to, to us so that you can lie to the masses. This is a cup, this is a massive cover up when you start involving all these different players to try to tell your story. And he did this with Mercy Culture when he went on their podcast. And they participated and they're culpable because there's tons of evidence that they ignored when they brought him on. They're not just being lied to, they're participating in the lie. At this stage. Um, there's something seriously wrong with Mercy Culture and the link leadership there to do this and then reject everybody who has gone to them and said, please stop, please look at the evidence, look at all the witness testimonies. And they reject it all because of their spiritual elitism and their, their pride. I'm just going to call it like it is. It's, it's a, it's dangerous. And I guarantee you there is a world of issues over there that are not yet dealt with. But, um, uh, but yeah, that's, that's the level of, it's not just oh, in text he said something that wasn't true. You have to, to see it as part of the story. 308 03:02:16.000 --> 03:04:06.000 No, it's, it's a, it's a strategy. This is a, a goal to reach influential people, to get them to spread a narrative. And then, you know, there is the text message with uh, with Joel Richardson where Mike reaches out to Joel Richardson, uh, a well known author on uh, end Times. And uh, uh, he is concerned, it appears, because uh, Joel, uh, who doesn't hold back, had said some things online about this and he's reaching out to Joel privately in a text message, trying to get him to take down, you know, what he has written. And Joel did not respond, um, as he anticipated. So again, it is a campaign of dishonesty to spread a false narrative. And so he goes on here and he says, Nancy, his wife has been furious to read these new accounts, but there are no new accounts. The account of 2020 is identical to the account of 2024 with the exception of one detail. And you say, well, why would she say that now? Why would she say now that he's kissing her on the lips and she didn't say it? Listen, understand she has not told anybody this for 18 years. It's been her secret. And I have interviewed, uh, survivors of uh, clergy sexual abuse and most of them will go decades longer than Tammy, uh, woods. 40 years before she understood that she was a victim and began uh, to speak out about it. So this is very normal behavior. Imagine going to a swimming pool and you're debating whether or not to jump into that pool. And so what do you do? You do what everybody does. You put your foot in the water and you see how cold it is. So when she shared with Chris Bennett In 2020, she left out the most agreed and probably the most embarrassing thing, just the idea of uh. 309 03:04:06.000 --> 03:05:11.000 Let me, please let me add into this because I'm, I'm uh, I'm no longer certified because I haven't kept my certification up. But I, I was for years a certified domestic violence counselor. I was working with the state. I had guys who were convicted of committing DV domestic violence and they would sit in on classes for 52 weeks with me. One of the things, things that you'll see in training as you're dealing with domestic violence, as is a well known fact, anytime someone talks about abuse that they have experienced, they usually understate it. So if a woman comes to you, usually it's women. If you comes to you and says this is what happened, dot dot, dot, you are trained to assume There was more that she's not ready to talk about yet. That is the normal thing. You're taught to assume. And it is. And it's taught. You're taught to assume. Assume it. Because people have worked with so many victims, they learn this the same as you have, that this is industry. This is just known. Yes. She. She didn't share everything, and they usually don't. Anytime a woman tells me he. He hit me, I'm thinking there's probably a lot more to it than just that. Um, and it just takes time. And sometimes they never share, um, that. 310 03:05:11.000 --> 03:05:12.000 Right. 311 03:05:11.000 --> 03:05:24.000 That. That's very common. Even when they do share a bunch, they hold back this other thing because it just so embarrassing and so debasing or just hard. And so that's. That's. That's totally normal. This isn't fabricating anything. 312 03:05:24.000 --> 03:05:32.000 We. Would you agree then, um, that the fact that she only left out one detail is surprising? Like, normally you would expect her to leave out more details. 313 03:05:32.000 --> 03:05:50.000 You would have. I. I think that had to do with where she was at 20 years later. You know, this is almost 20 years later. So when she talked to Chris that she had a lot of time to build up, up, and then she had all this time after he asked, before she responded. So I think she. It's surprising that she shared as much as she did at that. At that moment. Yeah. 314 03:05:50.000 --> 03:08:42.000 Okay, so a, uh, couple more things. In this text, he says to Pastor Matt, I have wanted to do this video since September 13th, when I first learned that people and the Roy's report were gunning for me. This is what I've wanted to say for months now, with my board agreeing that the time was the time. I'm sorry, this is what I've wanted to say for months now, with my board agreeing that the time was now. Right. Uh, the problem with that is, um, he told me the exact opposite. So he's talking about making the video. And again, the video has been taken down, so it couldn't have been that great. Um, but in that video, he's trying to. Without getting too much into detail to explain that, yes, he had an emotional affair, adultery of the heart, as he explains it to the investigator, with Kim. And when I met with Mike or via email, uh, six weeks before that, his words to me were the exact opposite of that. When I urged him, I said, mike, this is not nothing. This is something. It's not the worst thing in the world. And I told him, I don't think it's a career ending sin, but you. You didn't handle it right. You, you should have handled it with a group of elders, with a group of leaders. And I said, um, the best thing you can do now is to get it out in the light. And he said to me, the only thing that could even be considered abuse is what he did to Sarah. The other issue, meaning the relationship with Kim, we will not talk about it. He was adamant that nobody needs to know. And, and I understand why that is the more embarrassing one. That was the more overtly sexual relationship, um, even if it wasn't physical. But he's telling this pastor that when he first heard about it, he wanted to tell. He wanted to go out and make a video and for something restrained him. But again, that's not what he told me. But he also says that his board, his board said now is the right time. What he doesn't tell Pastor Matt is that he did not tell his board about his relationship with Kim, him or, or Sarah for that matter. So September 13th is the day he found out that the Roy's report were considering running an article about this. It is October 25th. Before he discloses to his board. And when he discloses to his board, he only tells them about Sarah because again, the issue with Kim is more embarrassing and it's more overtly sexual and, and yeah, it will embarrass other people. So the idea that his board has been with him this entire time and saying, you know, now is the right time, now is not the right time. It. Again, he's. I can only tell you what he said to me and to two other people, uh, one of whom was a board member. We will not talk about the relationship with Kim. Um, and then the last. His board is. 315 03:08:42.000 --> 03:08:45.000 His board has changed too, right. Since this all began. 316 03:08:45.000 --> 03:09:06.000 Yeah, I don't, I don't know who's on his board anymore. I can tell you that everyone who was on his board on October 25, 2024 is no longer on his board. I don't know who the chairman of the board is. I don't know. Uh, the only last thing I heard was that Raleigh Washington was his spokesman. And that seemed quite short lived. 317 03:09:06.000 --> 03:09:30.000 Yeah, maybe. I don't, I mean Rally's the one he put, he pointed me to, to find out about the, the, the, the, the failed promise of having a, um, A uh, trauma informed counselor who was going to help create accountability. Not be there to counsel Mike Brown like he claims in the, in the video, but to be there to create accountability, which is the claim that they did make. It's on their website. And I've checked the Wayback Machine and I've seen it. It's there. 318 03:09:30.000 --> 03:09:52.000 Yeah. And we should talk about that briefly. Let me finish this text here and then maybe we could just talk about that because I was in those discussions. But let me finish up on the text message to Pastor Matt. That being said, my actions back then were idiotic and inappropriate. Responding to the constant daughter like affection of Sarah. 319 03:09:52.000 --> 03:10:05.000 Now the prop, um, same, same garbage, same deflection. She's the active agent and he's merely reacting. This is. You see the patterns when you start putting all these things together is dishonest. 320 03:10:05.000 --> 03:10:23.000 And what does he confess to? I put my arm around her, I touched her rear end several times, I kissed her forehead, uh, I grabbed her hand or held her hand. So all these actions are, the only thing that she, uh, has done that I know of is that at the end of the day she would go and give him a hug goodbye. 321 03:10:23.000 --> 03:11:41.000 Well, and people don't understand that. I, um, know this is a touchy point for individuals, but the fact is he's the spiritual leader, he's also the older man, he's also married, he's also the male in the relationship. And all of those factors weigh into this. To say you have a certain responsibility and deflecting things onto her re victimizes the person who you have already failed and wounded. Um, and so this is always the case. When people don't want to be accountable, they inevitably create more wounds for the people they've already hurt. Because you have to. Somebody has to be in error here. Someone's got to be the bad guy. And so I've got to make them the bad guy. He threw Kim under the bus with for years over these issues with people, whoever confronted him. And he's throwing Sarah under the bus and continues to. And my heart goes out to him. To be honest, I care about Mike Brown. I do absolutely care for him. And um, but that compassion I feel for him and the tears that he has that I think are genuine tears. Um, but everybody can cry. Um, Peter can cry after he betrays Jesus. It doesn't make it better. And so those tears, they should be a godly sorrow that leads to repentance. Otherwise it's the wrong kind of tears. 322 03:11:41.000 --> 03:12:29.000 And what we've seen throughout all these communications is, uh, you know, evading responsibility, deflecting responsibility, her constant affection towards me. And then with Kim, she said something, something, she wrote something, I saved it in case I was ever, uh, accused of anything. Um, and by the way, Ray's testimony, which was powerful and, and I mean, heart wrenching, would have never come out if, if Mike had not said that about Kim, if he just said, you know, yeah, there was something written down and let's leave it at that. But by making her the, the culprit, um, that's why Ray came forward. Uh, and his words were powerful, which. 323 03:12:29.000 --> 03:13:03.000 He told me the reason why he said those things about her is to protect her. I kid you not. And we spent a while talking about this and I was like, no, what you did protected you. And it threw her under the bus. That's what happened. But he just kept insisting he was bound by secrecy and a promise to them that he couldn't say more. And I was like, well, the only thing you said defended yourself and attacked her. That's all you said. So this is no protection at all. It's the same pattern of behavior. 324 03:13:03.000 --> 03:13:45.000 Right? So regarding the trauma informed counselor, we were quite upset at the end of this process because, uh, the Elder Accountability Board was supposed to have a trauma informed counselor that never would have allowed them to change, uh, sexually abusive misconduct to leadership misconduct. Uh, they would have understood the impact that would have on the victim and how wrong that would be. Uh, and then Mike in the video, uh, maybe we can play that clip. But Mike in the video says that the trauma informed counselor was for him because he's the victim. He is going through a trauma. And that's why even as he goes back into ministry, he, I will play. 325 03:13:45.000 --> 03:14:21.000 The, listen, I'm going to do this all. And everybody will see on screen right now, this is the promise they made. You will see on screen that in text in official statements on their website. The trauma informed counselor was there to provide accountability and oversight, not to counsel Dr. Brown that this was done at the request of Ron Cancer and others on the victim side because they wanted that person involved later, this person. And who knows who they were or what they did in, uh, reality, I'll bet you there's a story there behind the scenes. But Mike Brown then goes on Mercy Culture podcast and makes this false claim. And I'll play that clip now. 326 03:14:21.000 --> 03:14:41.000 So on the accountability team was to be a trauma informed counselor. For me, because of this trauma, that's what it was for. And I did get counseling and I'm still getting it. And I know that's why even stepping back into ministry, step at a time, because I know there's still wounds to be healed. 327 03:14:41.000 --> 03:14:47.000 So that's a lie. It was not for him to get personal counseling because of his trauma. That's not right. 328 03:14:47.000 --> 03:18:01.000 Yeah, I was in those negotiations, you know. So, uh, let's go back now to uh, December. We formed an ad hoc board. And it is interesting if you watch that whole three, three hour, three and a half hour video, he talks about Ron and others. Others. And there's a reason he said Ron and others. Well, number one, for time's sake, it's. It's much shorter. But the others would show that there is a group of people that were very close to him. The others were Bob Gladstone, probably the, the number two, at one time the, I think the co director of the school. But everyone in that orbit of Brownsville Revival School of Ministry, or Fire School of Ministry, uh, knows the name, uh, Bob Gladstone, one of the most beloved voices, respected voices. So, so it was me, Bob Gladstone, Keith Collins, who was. Who ended up being the. The pastor of Fire Church. He was also the president for a time of the Brownsville Revival School of Ministry. And then Mike Labanovic, a local elder, with Bob Gladstone. All of us at, uh, one time or another, extremely close to Mike Brown. So. And all of us, you know, everyone that really was with Mike, like going back 20 years ago. There's only one leader that I know of. I don't want to. I gotta be careful. And that's, you know, Josh Peters. I don't know of any other leaders that are still with him and in the majority are deeply concerned about what's happening right now and the lies that are being told. So the, the four of us, we formed an ad hoc board because we wanted to make sure that Sarah and the other witnesses had represented presentation before Mike Brown's board as they were moving ahead hiring lawyers, hiring investigators. We said, well, hang on, you know, we're not so sure that we're going to cooperate. You know, we, we need to make sure that this is, uh. And by the way Mike says it in the. In the video with other shot that I think it was a victim, uh, friendly, uh, I can't remember the exact words he used. But no, we wanted to make sure that it wasn't a law firm that was focused on getting the. The accused off, which, which is often the case. Um, but in those negotiations we. We said, you, you know, you've got to have a board of elders, uh, that is going to look at this information. So you got the investigation, but then you need New Testament eldership. This is what I've been arguing back about for quite a while. You need genuine. And it would be best if Mike was in a Local congregation, and it was his elders, but they put a group together of elders. And I said, and you need a trauma informed counselor. Because there, the fact is, six guys or five guys or four guys in a room looking over what happened to a 20 year old woman and a, and a, and a mother, uh, Kim, a older mom. I said, you need females in that room and you need trauma informed counselors in that room. Not, uh, just a bunch of, bunch of, uh, you know, you know, 50, 60 year old elders. So it was always understood that the trauma informed counselor was to work with the accountability board to decide on discipline. I never, I never, never imagined that that trauma informed counselor was there because of Mike's trauma until I heard it from his own. 329 03:18:01.000 --> 03:20:59.000 And let me, let me add one more element on the phone. I asked him about the trauma inform informed counselor. Uh, or was it text? I think I texted him, hey, what's up with the trauma informed counselor? It appears as though they weren't involved. That's how it looks to me as I look at the report afterwards. There's signs in there that they weren't involved. And he says to me, I wasn't part of that because I recused myself. So I'll have to direct you to rally. He's going to be able to help you. And so now in this interview he goes, the trauma informed counselor was for me. Wait a minute, now you know, now you know what they're for? Apparently they were for you the whole time. This is completely a lie. This is entirely a lie. All right, this is Mike during editing again. Look, I watched back this part with me and Ron talking here and I realized how clear of an example it is what he said to me in our phone call compared to what he said in the Mercy Culture podcast. And, um, again, this phone call was only recorded because he wanted it recorded. And so I did as well because he was going to record it. Figured I should have my own copy. Um, but let me read to you now from this conversation where I asked him about this and please keep in mind, he told Mercy Culture it was always going to be a counselor for him. It was never going to be a counselor to be a trauma informed counselor, you know, involved in the process with oversight type of thing. So I said to Mike, could I ask one thing that has come up that I haven't heard a response to? He said, yeah. I said, it's the idea that elders, the elders, were going to include a trauma informed counselor. And then the claim is that that wasn't the case. Mike, he Challenged me at that point. He says, how do you know it wasn't the case? So I said, was it? He said they had other consultants, they had several people that they consulted, but I was recused. So you'd have to ask the elders. They did tell me that they had other people they consulted with outside of the team that wrote the statement. Worked on that was one thing. But they had other people whose names did not want to be mentioned that they consulted with. You'd have to ask them. I can refer you to Raleigh, Washington on that. I was recused, but I was told that they had other people they consulted with. But I don't know. I can't give you names. That's not my involvement. But I can't can refer you to the person you can send questions to. So I said it would be at minimum wise for them to address this because it was a public commitment they made publicly. We committed we will do this. And as far as what they publicly published, it doesn't look like that happened. Mike Brown says, got it. Well, yeah, I'll get you an email of the person you can reach out to that can speak to that. That's outside of my domain. Now. Mike is saying it was never to be that that person was involved in the investigation or the oversight. It was just going to be that that person was for him personally. Well, then why is it in May on Cinco de Mayo, why is it that that wasn't the story when he talked to me on the phone and. 330 03:20:59.000 --> 03:21:47.000 I asked, I asked the Elder Accountability Board. I mean, as soon as it came out, I was texting, emailing and saying because there were a number of problems and, and one of them, uh, did meet with me and Sarah. Him and his wife met with me and Sarah for an hour. And I have to say, uh, while we disagreed, uh, I appreciated their transparency in talking me through their process. Uh, but I asked about the Trauma Informed Counselor and they never once, they never once said, oh, yeah, that was for Dr. Brown. Nobody ever said that. That was a talking point. That came out later. Um, it wasn't what we believed before the Elder Account, Elder Accountability Group, and it wasn't what we believed after they gave the report. And again, we asked about it over and over again. Never got a response. 331 03:21:47.000 --> 03:22:50.000 So, listen, there's a couple things I want us to still do. I think we've gone through our prepared content, but there's a couple things I just want to talk about briefly before we finish this video. And that's to say, um, what we are seeing to wrap it in a bow. What we're seeing here is a pattern of dishonesty, manipulation, lies, damage control, throwing, throwing people under the bus to save your own reputation, deflection. Um, and then what I see with, with Michael Brown is I think his circle is getting smaller as far as people on his team. So to, you know what, you know what I mean. And those groups are becoming increasingly the people who um, are the usual suspects. Um, it's mercy culture. It's that he's now and I think I know him at least you know him a lot better than I do. Enough to know that he's probably not happy with the people he's forced to keep company with now. But there just isn't other people that have got his back. The people that he wants to have around him who he feels like are people of integrity just aren't going to have his back right now. 332 03:22:50.000 --> 03:23:09.000 I think that is an accurate statement. I think, think there was an expectation that people would rally behind him, believe his narrative in, in. I mean that was what he requested of us back in October. And, and now you're, you know, now you're, you're left with who you got. And, and it's not always the most, uh, people of high integrity. 333 03:23:09.000 --> 03:24:15.000 No, you get Todd White, he'll be on your team. That guy will be on your team. But he's, he's, he's totally corrupt. So this is, these are the people that are going to team because they have, because they want the same cover up for themselves so they can, they can work with you. But um, but I don't think he's as bad as a lot of those guys. I think that this is just. He has been making this problem so much worse because he keeps lying about it and lying about it and lying about it. So I hope my appeal would be. I don't think he'll watch this video, but my appeal would be to Dr. Brown. Um, uh, there's still absolutely time for grace. If you come out and you share the truth, I will delete this video in a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. Because it will be you being honest, being open. And in fact if he does it before the video goes live, I will never, nobody will ever see this video and I'll be happier with that resolution. But he'd have to be actually open and honest, not admitting as little as can be known and spin and all this other thing. You'd have to repudiate the mercy culture video that you did. That was horrific, that was abusive, that was disgusting. Um, that has to. To all be done. And otherwise, um, it is what it is. 334 03:24:15.000 --> 03:25:54.000 Yeah. And I can tell you at the, uh, sometime around the end of April, I was told by one of his board members, uh, this was after the Firefly report came out and after the Eat Elder Accountability Team report came out, that that Mike was. Was broken, that he was meeting with the counselor and that the truth was coming out and he was dealing with it. And I said to this person, I said. I said, as hard as that is for me to believe after what I've been through these six months, I said, if that is really true, I will get. I was in the States. I will get in my car right now and drive to Charlotte and hug him and love him. And I mean, I would love nothing more than for him to tell the truth. I think what we've done here today, uh, is we have shown that he has not been honest. But the appeal is, we love you, Mike. We care for you, Mike. We. We believe there, there is hope. But you have to. You have to own up to this culture of COVID up. Again, if this was dealt with 23 years ago, not privately, but with other elders, it would have been part of your testimony. But. But the longer this goes on in the. In pretending that this is a trial that as opposed to giving account for things that you did in the past, that doesn't help. Maybe it will convince a few people. But I love you enough, Mike. I know that I'll get criticized for this video. Um, I've already lost quite a few friends and acquaintance over this whole issue. But, Mike, my prayer for you is that you come into the light fully 100%, and you can be still in the future whom God has called you to be, particularly in the area of Jewish evangelism. 335 03:25:54.000 --> 03:27:26.000 That would be so beautiful. That would be so beautiful. And this idea of, oh, we just want you to disappear forever. That. No, that is not what we want. We want real repentance and forgiveness to happen. That's what we really want to see happen. Um, and so this is a sad. This video should not be needed. But one of the things that I want to see, Ron, I'll be honest with you, is I want to see one of these guys that is getting called out who are part of this circle where they all know each other's dirt. One of them to come out and just spill the beans. Because. Because you know what? I believe that Michael Brown also knows about a bunch of other bad actors that are currently in ministry, and he is not telling anybody who needs to Know, which is the followers who are being duped by these guys. And, um, this is the culture of COVID up stuff. So I'm hopefully helping to add my voice to all those who are trying to say, hey, let's, let's confront this. Let's deal with this. And today's video is going to hopefully be beneficial in that. That I'm sorry for those of you that you love my ministry or you loved my ministry and you don't like what I'm doing. I'm trying to think biblically about how we handle elders who sin and persist in sin, biblically about how we handle leadership who is bringing harms to their people in the name of the Lord. Um, how we handle accountability in the body of Christ. This is thinking biblically about that stuff and it is very unpleasant, which is why most people won't do it. And, um, I don't, I don't enjoy this stuff at all. I can't wait to get back to just teaching verse by verse, which is what I prefer. So, um, Ron, I don't know, is there any other final words? 336 03:27:26.000 --> 03:27:33.000 No, I think, I, uh, think. I don't know how many hours this video is going to be, but I think. I think we've said what needs to be said. 337 03:27:33.000 --> 03:28:06.000 Yeah. Yeah, well, we'll. We'll see. And, um, I hate to say it, uh, but it's true. There's more coming. I got more videos coming out on more people, and I will absolutely be off people's list as a heresy hunter or a hypercritic or something else by the end of this. For sure it's going to happen. Um, but find where I'm wrong and then call me that. That's all I would say. So. All right, well, Ron, thank you, Lord. Bless you. And, uh, I appreciate you speaking to this. Um, hopefully this is both of our final word on this. Unless there's like a positive word we can say later about repentance. 338 03:28:06.000 --> 03:29:17.000 Yeah. Let me just reiterate that if I think I shared at the beginning of the video, I'm hoping to. To not talk publicly about this issue ever again. That is my goal. I'm simply responding. I didn't want to do this video and I, I told you that I didn't want to do it. I woke up in the morning and I said, I'm gonna get a hold of Mike Winger and I'm gonna tell him I'm. I'm out. I don't want to do it. I don't want to talk about anymore. And that day, Mike releases, uh, or I saw it that day, a YouTube video where, you know, he's gone through a trial. He's the victim. You know, God, God honors or revives the contrite of heart. So, um, that's why I did it. And um, but I appreciate you, uh, being willing to host it and uh, let's, you know, pray. Lord, come and do something, fix. Uh, it's a much larger situation and I think it gets. The thing that is being highlighted is that we need genuine New Testament government, uh, not parachurch ministry boards trying to do what they're not called to do. It's the New Testament eldership that deals with sexual sin, not boards. New Testament elders, final word. 339 03:29:17.000 --> 03:29:27.000 Ask the leaders who are you submitted to and can I talk to them? And if you don't have good answers to both of those questions, there is no accountability in that ministry.