WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:47.000 Now my dad was considered the prophet by those who were following him. He started practicing polygamy. I have 15 siblings. And he was incredibly predatorial. He would start preying on girls as young as 14 years old. I mean, I grew up in a very legalistic, high control doomsday cult because of our beliefs. I mean, neither of my parents sought medical care. It was just, they were supposed to be okay and they weren't. They're dead. So I remember standing outside the church and asking the Lord not to smite me. Truly, I was truly that scared. That's what I had been taught. Like I was in the back of the church, on the floor, curled up in a ball, weeping, shaking uncontrollably. Like that's how bad it was for a period of time. So it's like, I can't do this right now. But I'm not going to give up. 2 00:00:47.000 --> 00:01:13.000 I think this is a video that's going to set people free from spiritual abuse and even help some abusers who honestly don't realize how their practices aren't spiritual. They're anti spiritual. They're not of God. So we're going to walk through 13 different categories, um, and kinds of spiritual abuse, manipulation, coercion. But if you would start with just a brief overview of your story to introduce yourself to everybody. 3 00:01:13.000 --> 00:05:36.000 Sure. So I grew up. The way I explain it is that I grew up in a pseudo Christian cult. I don't think that's a technical term, but the reason I call it that is because I grew up believing that I was Christian. That's what I was told. Uh, there wasn't a name for it. There wasn't a specific church name for it. I was told that I was Christian. Now I do know as an adult that we were a splinter group of what's called the Message. So William Brenham, a guy who died in 1965, was the founder of the Message. And it's still a global ministry today. And my dad had been a part of that ministry. When Brenham was alive. He went into some of the tent revival meetings that Brennan would have. Brennan had like a big healing ministry. Healing ministry. We'll talk more about that, I'm sure. But my dad got involved in that and he was a great singer. He ended up doing some singing for some of the tent revival meetings. And when Brenham died, he thought that he was carrying the torch forward for Brenham after he had passed. And so Brenham had been considered a prophet. Now my dad was considered the prophet by those who were following him. My dad is not the only person who did this. A lot of people did this. Even within the message, the churches, none of them play nice. They're all the only one. Each of them is the only one. So my dad, though, went further off track than Brenham's teachings already had been. And because of that, he got kicked out of the message. So after getting kicked out of the message, he landed in between New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and started his own thing. He grew his own following. And the biggest distinction that happened for him, one of them, was that he started practicing polygamy. So he lived a polygamous lifestyle. He had many wives. I have 15 siblings from four. Four moms in total. He had other wives throughout his life as well that he did not have children by. So that's not the total number of women that he had in his life. And he was incredibly predatorial. Again, some of this I realize now as an adult turning 40 here soon. I have a different lens for it, of course, but he would start preying on girls as young as 14 years old and know, uh, that when they were 17, he was going to take them as a wife and he would be in his 50s. He was in his 60s when this was happening. So. And myself and my sisters were not exempt from that kind of behavior. And so all, all the abuses happened within our household. So the polygamy was huge. Of course, that's. I mean, that's a big thing lifestyle wise. Um, also spiritually, just in the threats of. Everyone has to get along and see this as being God's will. And if not, you're not right in the eyes of God. Like, if you take any issue with this, if there's any jealousy, anything like that, that's a sign in your heart that you're not right with the Lord. So a lot of pressure to behave and to feel and pretend that you're feeling a certain way. I was also in public school, which is really significant. I am grateful that I was in public school. It was better than what it would have been had I been homeschooled, because I got to meet other Christians and got to see other ways of living. And that served me really well in retrospect, although it was incredibly difficult to be hiding that my family was polygamous, that my dad was a prophet, that we believed the older generation would not and could not die. We were all going to walk into the new heavens and the new earth together. I followed a bunch of holiness standards. I had the uncut hair to the back of my knees. I had the Long skirts, even in gym class, you know, uh, no makeup, all of that kind of stuff. Didn't celebrate holidays. All holidays were pagan. Celebrated Thanksgiving. That's the caveat. My dad liked a good meal, so we celebrated Thanksgiving. But it was really just about food. So hiding all of that stuff and going to public school was a lot. Um, plus the abuse in the home. And so I grew up dissociating a lot. All of my memories as a child, I'm like, I can see myself in them. I was like kind of floating in the side of the room and grew up under a lot of stress and needing to live a very duplicitous life. And so I came out of that through, well, major tugs at my worldview because my dad wasn't supposed to be able to die. When I was 21, he did. And I was actually so convinced he wasn't going to die that I had traveled to Ohio, saw him and went home the night before he died thinking, there's no way this man's actually able to die. So I'm going to go home and go finish my last semester of college. It started the next day and he actually did die. 4 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:42.000 So this, this teaching that he, that his generation wasn't going to die, was that from Branham? Was that from him? 5 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:50.000 That was from him, as far as I'm aware, yeah. Uh, because I don't recall Branham saying that. I don't have any recollection of Brenham saying that. 6 00:05:50.000 --> 00:06:27.000 Okay. It's interesting because, um, this is what Bob Jones, one of the IHOP Kansas City prophets said about kids who were born. I forget the year. I have it on a video where he talks about, he said like 1984. There's a specific date and if you're born, this is the generation that's going to be walking in the ultimate power. They're not going to die. And then Bickle echoed some of this. Um, and so it's interesting seeing the overlap how some of the same false teachings will just appear in, in these different groups that are, are also power centered, um, hyper apostles or super prophets kind of characters. Yeah. 7 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:45.000 Right. And then people do die and nobody's ready for that, especially kids like myself and my siblings who grew up in it. So that wasn't on our radar. We were going to bury parents someday. And that's a complicated grief situation that it's hard to find a therapist for. So. 8 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:46.000 Right. 9 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.000 So that's challenging. 10 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:48.000 Yeah. 11 00:06:48.000 --> 00:08:16.000 And then my mom passed away at 25. So three and a half years later she died. She was only 64 and she, all of us, she had been very healthy and all of a sudden she was not healthy. And she went really within a matter of months she was gone. And because we thought God's will be done, no medical care, totally untreated, undiagnosed, very much and unnecessarily unnecessary death most likely. And so it wasn't so much. I know we'll get into healings more later. It wasn't like a lay hands on so much. I mean to a degree people were certainly praying. I remember getting really irritated actually towards the end because someone was in there like, would not stop praying. And I was like, just, please, just, just stop. And like, let's be with her and let's. Um. And so that was really, that was incredibly difficult because my mom was my world. She had been my world growing up. She had been the one. She's. She's how I knew that I was lovable through all of that. Because she adored her kids and loved being a mom. And so losing her was really big. And that was again, tugs at the worldview that it's like, well, how does someone get out of a, you know, polygamous pseudo cult like this or pseudo uh, Christian culture? And well, I, uh, mean they weren't supposed to die and they did. I mean that's irrefutable, right? And so I then their, their passing. 12 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:22.000 Put like a crack in the dam for you as far as your worldview going. Wait a minute. Maybe. Maybe there's other problems too. 13 00:08:22.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Yes. Yeah, definitely that there were other problems too. And the wackadoodle stuff that comes out of situation like these, like after my mom died, I get a call from someone who had been in the group and they're like, naomi, I'm just calling to tell you that we have your father here. And I remember saying my 25 year old self, are you guys having tea? Like, I mean they had intercepted his ashes from the funeral homes. They had never actually, what we had as wishes never actually happened. They. I'm like, that's illegal. So now I've got two sets of ashes sent to me that I've got a, uh. And it's like, oh my goodness. So there was stuff like that too where I'm like, this is just weird. Like this is wrong. This is not how this is supposed to go. And uh, so some of that stuff, you know, kind of added a little bit along the way. Especially I think actually getting to go to school. That's something I'm grateful for. People in my situation Especially women don't necessarily get that opportunity. And so I did graduate high school. I had, I was working on my first master's degree when my mom passed away. And so that was helpful for me because I was studying social work and how to be a counselor. And so just the way I was kind of thinking about things was helpful. So I see these different things in my life that really were stepping stones where the Lord was really showing up, um, in my life. And I think again, that was, that was one of them. But ultimately I needed to get out of there. And so I. We didn't like all live in a compound or anything like that. People were spread out and like in their own homes and things. But I just needed to get out of the area. So I packed up what fit my car. I moved to Colorado. I was living in my car for a while, couch surfing the stories I have, like, my husband is terrified by, he's like, I cannot believe he did this stuff. He's like, the Lord definitely was with you because that is so unsafe as a young woman to be doing these things. So please, anyone, don't do that. I'm not recommending it. Um, the Lord was merciful, but I really didn't know where to go and what to do. And I was informed enough to know I wasn't going to run away from the mess that was inside. But I also didn't feel like I could breathe where I was. So I landed in Colorado, got a part time job, ended up full time from there, kind of started creating, creating a life there. But I also started feeling and thinking all of the things that I had not been allowed to feel and think along the way. So all of the questions starting, started coming up. All of the pain, um, the trauma that I had experienced and the fallout from that, all of that was coming up. And through that I started trying to hear my dad's voice again because again he had been my prophet. So I was like, I don't know, like, am I wrong? Am I missing something? So I headed a bit in a New age direction, got into some Reiki, some tarot cards, stuff like that. Again, do not recommend that. Gets dark real fast. So got out of that and then thought, well, I, I'm going to try going to a church. We had done home churches and I'm not speaking out against home churches when I say this. I was a cult doing a home church. Um, and so when I went into a building of a church, that was terrifying. I had been taught that Christians didn't act real Christians weren't in there. That. That was of. That was of Satan. Like people who were in the real churches, you know, the buildings, they were wicked. So I remember sitting outside the church and asking the Lord not to smite me. Truly, I was truly that scared. That's what I had been taught. So I, I prayed that the Lord would know my heart was to find him and that if he wasn't actually in there, to please redirect me because I wanted to find him. I knew I needed to find him. M. And uh, or I don't know that I would have stuck around, to be honest, at that point. So went into church and heard, heard true things, opened my Bible and it checked out and couldn't go back for another few weeks because it was so much. Because they talked about grace Mike. And I was like, whoa, what is this? So I need to digest that for a little while. And then started attending regularly and uh, ultimately without the. It was a bigger church, great church, but it was really big, mega church technically. And so I didn't really have any discipleship either. And so along the way, things still got kind of funky. Um, I ended up going into a more word of faith, kind of prosperity gospel direction for a little while and finally landed in seminary, which for me was perfect. Certainly not something everyone needs to do. But for me to go to seminary and get a seminary degree with some great people like Dr. Douglas Crote and Dr. Craig Blomberg, and I mean, to be having dinner with these guys, you know, it was just like, okay, I learned how to read my Bible. 14 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:09.000 There you go. 15 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.000 I got to disentangle everything, really get my feet under me. 16 00:13:12.000 --> 00:14:05.000 And yeah, I think, I think people don't realize until. Unless they talk to someone who's been through what you've been through or have been through it themselves. Um, they don't realize how even if you leave the group, like let's say a Jehovah's Witness leaves the watchtower, they, they still carry for decades, usually wrong beliefs that are based upon things they've heard and the, the ability to sift through and figure out what was true and what, what wasn't true is a hard earned ability. Yeah, uh, it's, it's a big challenge. And there's, there's so many people I've dealt with who are like that. There's the, the learning, exegesis, learning hermeneutics, learning basically, like reading the Bible in context is really what you're learning. You know, you don't have to learn super fancy things. You just Learn that sort of slow down. Is that really what it says? If that, that one practice and then applying that over and over again in the scripture is so valuable? 17 00:14:05.000 --> 00:15:19.000 Yeah. Oh absolutely. Yeah. It was less about like what to think and how you do it and how you research and investigate and really equipped me to be able to do that well. And that. That was life changing. So. And then, I mean, alongside that, another thing I'll, uh, point out because I think it'd be relevant to others is I had to admit really, really hard things about people that I loved. I had to be willing to do that. And that was really hard. Um, and yet I have a strong value of truth that I'm grateful I have. I didn't give it to myself. I'm grateful that I have that and it was worth it to me. Um, but I will say along the way, I mean, I've continued to recognize different things I've had through the work that I do now. I've had people come forward who knew my family even before I was born. And I've heard news stories that have changed things where I've had to look back and kind of recalibrate again of okay, wait, I. I had that there. This was worse than I thought. And lost family, um, through doing so. So we will talk, I'm sure again about like excommunication and how that can fit in. But yeah, being kind of kicked out, you know, that door. 18 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:30.000 So you just mentioned the work you do for. For people watching. Um, Naomi's started doing this. This, uh. Well, how long you've been doing this now? This, this new counseling program. 19 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.000 Well, being molden started five years ago this summer. We're almost at five years. 20 00:15:34.000 --> 00:17:01.000 Yeah. And you basically, you guys help people. It's really specialized counseling. You help people recover from spiritual abuse. And this includes, as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, helping, um, them sift through the events of the past, the tactics that have been used against them, disarming the lies that they're still perhaps believing, helping them be equipped with the ability to process it themselves. Not just indoctrinating them in new things, but giving them that. So the equipping that you received, you're trying to then help people with that sort of thing. And it's complicated and there's a lot of stuff for. For people to sift through and work through. But I've been sending people to your guys ministry as I've been studying into spiritual abuse and fraud, um, in the uh, more so the charismatic movement. Than everywhere because I can only do so many things. Um, but yeah, so let people know what be emboldened is about because we're going to walk through stuff that these 13 categories we're going to cover of spiritual manipulation, you might call it. They're, um, things that you either experienced or, or there are other people have experienced them, but they become these sort of common. These things happen over and over again. You're over here in Texas and you're over here in New York and you're over here in like South Africa and you're in Korea. Like this is happening to you as well. And so we think that this will help set people free. It's kind of like a compacted counseling session for, for people who've been through this kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Is it. Did I summarize that? Right? Is that what being bolden does? 21 00:17:01.000 --> 00:18:08.000 Yeah, we. I'll add the prevention side as well. We see a lot of re. Victimization. So oftentimes we're seeing people after they've had more than one experience. And so that's something we really care about is prevention in general with high school students, college age students, as well as again, prevention of the re. Victimization piece of it. So yeah, the healing. Healing from. And prevention of, excuse me, spiritual abuse. So we focus on, on all of that and we do it internationally. So I'm glad you mentioned the other countries. And we have clients all over the world and it's, it's an honor to get to. I mean it's incredible. I meet the, I just meet incredible people who really love the Lord, um, or really want to know who he is. And they're so committed to doing really hard work mentally and emotionally to find Him. And it's, it's very encouraging. So. And we offer that through different ways. So yes, we have basically counseling. We do call it mentoring, Mike, just because like, while I'm a licensed professional, I technically can't do certain things across state lines. So with mentoring, it's like we get to abide by those, those legalities because of what we do. It's never been an issue. 22 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:09.000 Right. 23 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Because we're not doing the stuff that I couldn't do anyway. And it's not. Sure we have other people, a couple other people on the team right now as well, but. 24 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:19.000 Right. And lawyers, lawyers care that you call it mentoring, not counseling. 25 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000 Yes. 26 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:56.000 The rest of us, we all, we understand. We. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I like that you said prevention because this is something I've noticed too over the many years is that People who have a habit and a pattern of being involved in a spiritual abuse relationship, um, they can naturally fall into another spiritual abuse relationship. There's certain patterns and there's certain sort of groundwork that's been done in their lives through this system that they were part of that is still in place potentially so that they can slip easily back. And then they're like, how did this happen to me again? How did I get pulled in again? And so that's prevention thing's a big deal. Yeah. 27 00:18:56.000 --> 00:20:17.000 Yeah. Well, one of my favorite things that we do is a, uh, workshop for churches where the congregation and the local community gets to come and they learn more about the issue and also how to support one another and how to help themselves if they have gone through something. And I just, I love that because we love the local church. They're really good people doing really good things out there. And I think that's important with be emboldened as well. It's hard to find an organization that's doing it the way we're doing it. A lot of what you'll see out there is anti Christianity, anti church, and that's, that's not what we're doing. We also understand, though, just like myself, could be a really big deal to walk back into a church for a while or to open your Bible for a while, and we have that compassion and that understanding to companion alongside someone, knowing this is, this is going to be a journey and that's okay. Um, we're not, we're not calling it quits where we're at. We're, we're wanting to move forward. And so that's, again, it's going to take what it takes, but, but we're there, um, while someone goes through that. So, yeah, different ways to do it. I mean, some people want to talk one on one. Some people want to get together with other people. Some people want to just take, uh, one of our digital course programs and kind of do it on their own because talking to people is, feels too risky right now. So, yeah, we've got different ways that people can, can connect with us and get support. 28 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:58.000 Cool. Yeah. Well, please continue on with, with your story because this is kind of what leads up to then us being able to, to go through these like, 13 categories of spiritual abuse that keep cropping up over and over again in people's lives. I, I really believe people are going to be, um, tremendously helped. There's probably going to be people who are in the comments of the video going, thank you. That, that, that, that Helped set me free from something I didn't realize was still holding me down, was still clouding me and keeping me even afraid from pursuing God or, uh, perhaps underneath some kind of fear that, like, when you walked into the church and thought to yourself, like, lord, please don't strike me down, you know, you felt pulled, but also scared and just all this conflict going on. 29 00:20:58.000 --> 00:22:12.000 Yeah, yeah. Ultimately, after I did that, I mean, it was good I went to that one because I met my husband there. We've been married for almost 12 years now. So that. That was a big win. That was the last story I thought I would have. Mike was meeting my husband at church. Like, that was just not. I got out of the call. I was not gonna. That was not gonna be what I was gonna do. But I'm so grateful for it. Met like, my best friend there, who's like a little sister. Um, and so it was really. It was incredible. I'm glad I did it. And I. I have found that it is so worth doing the harder thing. It's so worth it. And for me, seeking after the Lord was absolutely the harder thing. I have some family members who are also out. Not everyone is still ongoing. Like, the cult I left is. There's a leader. One of my sisters is married to the leader. And it's still happening. I do have some other family members who are out. And different. Different ones have gone, have handled this in different ways. And those who have not kind of turned toward it and been like, okay, like, I'm going to try to figure all this out and disentangle and heal and rebuild and. And seek the Lord. It looks very different. And I am. I'm glad. So I just would want to encourage anyone, um, who's considering, like, this is worth it to go this way. 30 00:22:12.000 --> 00:23:02.000 Yeah. Well, how about we talk about these? Go through these categories. Okay, so the first one. So these are specific things that, uh, have been seen to be used over and over again. That control in unhealthy ways. They're often scriptures that are being used to distort it and applied wrongly in people's lives, but basically the kind of unhealthy spiritual abuse for power and control. And, uh, as we're going through these and someone's watching this video, you may find this applies very much to your life. And we encourage you to take a deep breath, take it in nice and slow, think about this. Don't just gut react to it. Just consider this the beginning of a process as you start to kind of work through this. And if you need Help, you can reach out to bemboldened.com and you can ask for some help through them as well. So the first one you mentioned though was authority. So let, um, me m. Want you tell me about that. 31 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:57.000 So, yeah, unquestionable authority. So talking about authority is the first one. And basically the message here, the scriptures that are taught are taught as evidence that a religious leader's authority is unquestionable because God placed each leader in their positions. So some include the idea of anointing, while others do not. But either way, again, the leaders can't. You can't touch them because of these scriptures. So here's a few of the main ones that are used. So we've got one Samuel 24:6 and first Samuel 26:11. This is going to be about David and king Saul. So 20 Samuel 24:6. He said to his men, the Lord forbid that I should do this thing to my Lord. The Lord's anointed to put out my hand against him, seeing he is the Lord's anointed. And then again in 2611, the Lord forbid that I should put out my hand against the Lord's anointed. But take now the spear that is at his head in the jar of water, and let us go. So these. 32 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:34.000 The Lord's anointed is. Is a catchphrase that everybody who is experienced, or almost everybody's experienced some kind of like, level of spiritual abuse. They'll be familiar with it. They'll be like, yeah, the Lord's anointed. Yeah, oh, yeah, I know that one. So this is, this is about that, that. That leader there. The leader isn't like a certain cast. The leader is like in a certain category of person that, that they, they get special treatment. You. You don't touch them. And that's taken as a metaphor for don't speak against them. Don't in any way challenge them. Don't do anything that would be perceived as bringing harm to their reputation or their agendas. 33 00:24:34.000 --> 00:25:17.000 Right, right. So this is one. I mean, it's really two, but very similar. And then first Chronicles 16:22 and Psalm 105, 15. So these are connected as well. And they're both saying, touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. In Chronicles, we've got the ark has just arrived back or not back. It's arrived in Jerusalem. And so David's worshiping with Israel. And this is a poem that David and the Israelites are praising God with. And God for saying, you know, the above to the believe the unbelievers who tried to oppress his people. So this isn't about. So he's saying, touch not my anointed ones do my prophets no harm. This is really. So I'll let you take it if you want to jump in from there. 34 00:25:17.000 --> 00:26:32.000 But yeah. Well, I mean, the way I've heard this used has been typically, um, what's construed as touching the anointed one is speaking in some way, in a challenging way or rebuking way or an exposing way to somebody who's in leadership. So that let's, uh, say that somebody has legitimately abused you and, uh, they're a leader. And then you're told, you know, don't touch the Lord's anointed. And that is the gossip, the telling other people. You told your sister, you told your friend, you told another ministry leader. And then you're seen as being under danger of God's judgment. This is your outside God's will. Let God deal with it. If God wants to deal with them, he will. But you don't have a right, you don't have a place. And there's a number of problems with this. Um, of course, in Christ New Covenant, right. We are all anointed in Christ. We've all been given the Holy Spirit. When the leader gets up and speaks against you or calls you a gossip or calls you these things, they are equally speaking against you. If we're all anointed, then that puts us on really equal ground in a lot of ways. Um, but there's other issues too. So like King David, um, he totally spoke against Saul. 35 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:33.000 Mhm. 36 00:26:32.000 --> 00:28:17.000 He didn't attack him physically. And this is to touch, not the Lord's anointed was to come against him, physically attacking him. And so I would agree, you know, if your pastor's spiritually abusive, don't stab him while he's sleeping. You know, don't throw a spear at him while he's going to the bathroom in a cave like Saul. Um, don't touch the Lord's anointed. Like, you know, violence against them personally in that sense. But when David sees Saul going to the bathroom in this cave and he comes up with his troops, his men who are military, who have defected away from Saul and are gathered around David. So he's leading a military defection that's pretty extreme. And that's still not considered having touched the Lord's anointed. He hasn't come against Saul in a greater way, but he's actually, if I took a group of people away from an abusive pastor and we all left the church because of their hyper controlling and damaging stuff would be kind of like David grabbing troops and leaving Israel like he does in this passage. And that wouldn't be considered a violation of touching the Lord's anointed. Plus, they all say to David, hey, look, the Lord's delivering your enemy into your hands. If David never spoke against Saul, how did they know that Saul was his enemy? Because David told them all. Yeah, he tried to kill me, guys. He threw a spear at me. He tried to murder me. This is why we're hiding from him. Everybody in David's circle of network of friends that he had taken from Saul's like, uh, from obedience to Saul to follow him instead. They were all aware of everything that happened there. So this is everything about this using. Don't touch. The Lord's anointed to silence. Legitimate complaints, legitimate opposition is completely a twisting of scripture. I don't see it there at all. What do you think about that? And what else would you add to that? 37 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Well, what you said about we all have, uh, the Holy Spirit indwelling, we are all anointed. That's not. That is what you just said. If you had said that to me 15 years ago, it would've been like, wait, what? I mean, that would be mind blowing. So people who are being told this, what you just said is so foreign. So there really is this. No, this person. Because they have this position of authority the Lord has. And we'll, we'll get into that more too, actually, in Romans 13:1 5. That was the next one I was going to point out. 38 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000 Yeah. 39 00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:37.000 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there's no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed. And those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. When you have no fear of the one who is in authority, then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is a servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be in subjection not only to God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. Now, the big thing that happens here is what is good is also then defined by the authority. 40 00:29:37.000 --> 00:33:08.000 Right? Right. Um, it's taken with no nuance, with no exceptions. To rules. It's not a general rule of obedience to authorities God has placed over your life, including spiritual authorities. But there's no question ah, of. And what realm of authority do they even possess? You know, so if the pastor comes up to me and he says, mike, I know you, you love the scroll. You guys are engaged, you want to get married, but you don't have my permission, you can't marry her. I'm not rebelling against authority to tell him. That's funny, you don't get a say in this, you know, like that's haha. You have no right. You don't have authority here. If the government comes and tells me, um, you have to support this unnecessary surgery for your kid to affirm their identities, I don't have to submit to the government there, that's an overreach of their role. So anytime somebody's. I remember, uh, when I was a kid, you know, my mom, I was like the Christian in the household, right? You know, so I was young, you know, probably teenager at this time. And somebody calls and she goes, tell them I'm not here. That's my mom with her mom. Authority, right? Tell them I'm not here. But she's asking me to lie, which would be a sin. And so I would pick up the phone, I thought, how do I try to honor her as much as I can, but not sin? Because God is the ultimate authority and I will honor him first. So I pick up the phone, I say, she's not available, which is true, and was not meant to throw it under the bus. But. But I was like, I'm not going to lie, you know, um, there's limits to authorities. And there's even times in scripture where we see this. Jesus flees while they're trying to arrest him on multiple occasions. These are authorities. They have the authority to arrest Jesus. Like they can't. And he runs from them, which normally when you run from cops, that's considered a bad thing, you know, but, but if the cops are in the wrong and you're running from, from a wrongful use of authority, and that's not a sin. The same sort of thing with Jesus was sought to be killed by Herod and they fled to Egypt. They were rebelling against Herod's authority, actually had the ability to just kill all these kids because they were, it was a, it was a coup. Even if they didn't believe that there was a Messiah born, they believe that the people are getting zealous about this idea of this Messiah born in Bethlehem. Let's there's visiting people from other countries that are talking about it. That's a threat to my authority as king. Kill him. Jesus and them, they flee. They disrespected him. Um, there's plenty of other examples. John the Baptist, he speaks against um, Herod and his incest, his incestuous relationship that he's got and he gets beheaded for it. But he won't stop. He goes, no, it's wrong. What you're doing is wrong. And he tells everybody and this is seen as a threat to Herod's respectability and authority. So there's, it's taking a general rule of, yeah, general obedience to authority and removing like all these wonderful examples that God has given us in scripture. You know, like if you think even Old Testament, you think of like ah Ehud, who is the left handed judge in the Book of Judges, who took a sword and hit it. And he goes up to Eglon, the real fat king, and he stabs him in the gut. This was literally a large scale violent revolt that normal, under normal circumstances would have been wrong. But because of the particular situation you have an oppressive wrong authority that's in place. And there were reasons why it was okay. But these verses are quoted as if they're just create omnipotence for the leadership and zero accountability. 41 00:33:08.000 --> 00:34:42.000 Well, and I think like reflecting back on my own experience, I'll use me as the example for this one. It also creates this kind of um, resignation to like I had to resign myself, my dad being abusive and I'm told like, well that's the man in him and you have to you know, kind of leave that and it's worth it for the Lord speaking through him. And you know, that's not an uncommon belief in these situations. But I had to kind of resign myself to this belief that well, the Lord is, is speaking, the Lord's in charge, which, I mean he is sovereign, he is in charge. But I'm gonna have to just put up with this because my dad must know best because of his relationship with the Lord. Like it's, it must, it's gonna come out in the wash somehow. This must be okay. The um, Lord's gonna work it out. And again there's like that sliver of truth with like his sovereignty that's in there, but it's not true. You know, the twist on it is too significant because now someone who's abusive isn't getting challenged, he's not getting called to account and everyone has to obey. So but again we hear that like slight Bit of like, well, yeah, he is sovereign. And it, uh, it ultimately like, he's. He does reign. And, you know, it's. He's gonna be just. And he's gonna. All of that. He's gonna be perfectly just and perfectly merciful and. But what we're told is just resign yourself to the fact that your leader is abusive because the Lord knows that he's abusive. So, like, it's fine. 42 00:34:42.000 --> 00:36:12.000 Yeah. I, um, mean, there's an element of that is if I am totally powerless and I'm being abused and there's nothing I can do about it, I can rest on God's sovereignty and go, lord, I know you're using this. I know you're still with me. I take courage and comfort in you. But the idea that I deliberately make myself powerless, that I don't see the intentional stripping of, uh, you know, with, with an abusive parent. That's why you have like, a community that you can go to and say, hey, this is what's going on in my household. Can, can. Can people in the community hold him accountable here or help us or you have even government here. This is why the government has rules against child abuse and things like that is so that you can, you can go to them. The very verse that they've quoted to stop the person in, in the case you're describing with, uh, with child abuse is the very verse that justifies going to the authorities. That's what they're there for, the punishment of the evil. And, um, that's something that is entirely appropriate. In fact, when I've dealt with kids who have abuse in the home, in every case I can think of, they always felt a tremendous sense of guilt that whatever happened once they reported it, that it was all their fault because they'd been trained that way. Oh, if you tell. They're going to take you away, they're going to put me in jail, it's going to be all your fault. You guys are going to starve. And all those things are being said so that the one who has actually has a tremendous amount of power to expose. They feel as if the sin was their fault and not shining a light on it was their responsibility. You know, it. It's all just twisted stuff. Yeah. 43 00:36:12.000 --> 00:37:28.000 And when you bring in the spiritual piece of it, the part I would add to the example you just gave is my dad was actually right, though. It wasn't, oh, uh, dad messed up. And so be forgiving and, and don't report it because then he'll get punished. And like, dad just, you Know that abuse cycle that we can see, it was. No, he actually is in the right though. And I know that's hard to understand, but like he's in the right, which makes the abuse then God, God is then abusing. And I hear this a lot. So God's character gets all messed up for people. And that's, that's the, that's really the end result is we end up with these blind followers who are not, you know, they're not discerning. Um, maybe they see the issues, but they're not allowed to, to ask questions, especially of the leader or the leader has total control, of course, without any accountability, because accountability is impossible. And then we have so much fear. And this fear is that, okay, if I question, I'm questioning God because God put them in authority. So if God put them in authority and I question them, then I'm questioning God's decision to put them in authority. So that leads to ultimately a false depiction of who God is and people saying if they walk away, they walk away from all of it. 44 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:52.000 So what do you tell someone who's in that spot? And they're like, they're still dealing with the belief or the leftover, you know, sort of ideas that, that, um, the wrath of man here, the abuse from a father, from a leader, um, that that was in fact justified and appropriate. Like how do you help them go? Like equip them with tools so they can go. That was actually wrong. 45 00:37:52.000 --> 00:39:40.000 Mhm. So there's going to be a couple different pieces at least to that. Maybe three. One is backing up to scripture about who they are, how they are made in God's image, what that means. I have a whole list of verses that are pulled about what God says about his children. And so that's usually one of the starting points at least. And then we start to see what's wrong then with what they were told. And uh, then there has to be again that, that empathy and that compassionate care of. Well then what happened to you was wrong and this person did harm you. And that's painful. That's a painful realization. And so again, this, this takes some time. People need some room for this and they also need some, some love as they go through it. They need some, some compassion and care. And then it's, it's breaking apart, disentangling what was actually God then based on what we see in scripture for his character, for his attributes, and what was actually the human. And it's really important to place that accountability in our own minds where it actually belongs. Because the risk of not is huge. One, we can walk away from the truth of the God who designed you and sacrificed on the cross for you and loves you and that's a huge tragic loss. I mean that's just beyond anything else. And also in a kind of practical day to day way too, it does set someone more so up for re victimization because they aren't identifying that that person was bad and so they may very well follow another person who's bad. 46 00:39:40.000 --> 00:40:05.000 Right. Yeah. Do you think this is true? I think sometimes people can even feel a sense of comfort from an abusive leader because they have been trained to perceive that sort of demanding, authoritative hard handedness as safe, as trustworthy. Um, there's something in it where they have to learn to question that authority. 47 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:20.000 Absolutely. And that, that's a bit of a journey on its own. But the way I think about it and I share about it is just because something's familiar, familiarity feels comfortable, but familiarity isn't necessarily good. 48 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000 Right. 49 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:28.000 And so there is some stuff that's familiar that needs to become uncomfortable because it's, it's unbiblical. Um, and it's wrong. 50 00:40:28.000 --> 00:41:39.000 Yeah. Some women who um, I did, for those who don't know, I did domestic violence counseling for a few years and some women who um. And it's usually women who experience deviate, sometimes men, more often women. But they, they sometimes will, will go through the realization that they had maybe a abusive father and then this caused them to identify certain characteristics as manly that were actually just abusive and then to look for those characteristics and that kind of familiarity in a man. Later on they end up getting in an abusive relationship and they're scratching their head like how did I get back into this abusive relationship again? This is exactly what I didn't want. But they didn't realize these are the qualities that m. I've mistaken for something respectable. Uh, where I was like, here's the guy who would never hurt me, but I just don't really respect him that much. He just seems kind of weak or something. This is at least sometimes. I've heard women report that this is sometimes the case. They're like, yeah, I kind of thought this aggressiveness and this lack of servanthood was part of what manliness was. Um, it's a distortion. 51 00:41:39.000 --> 00:42:09.000 Right. Or I'll hear oftentimes with women the flowery language, the poetic, the, all of that. And it can come way too soon. We could see that. I mean I've seen that a lot in the church within Christian community of day one. Oh my Gosh, you're it. And you're my dove and my this and my that. And first of all, I have to be fair. That's just not my style. If my husband had done that, we would not be married today. We would not have made it to the altar. 52 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 But. 53 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:50.000 But for some, they do like that. And I think as well, if someone came out of an environment where they never had that, it's, oh, my goodness, that can feel so healing and make someone feel so special. And then we've got, uh, a value and a worth issue that we need to address, because our value and our worth is going to come from the Lord, our identity in Christ. And so appreciating certain things great. Um, liking certain things great. But not allowing that to color our decision making at the same time. And so that's a caution that I see with again, primarily women. Not exclusively, but I would say the example I'm giving would primarily be women that have come alongside. 54 00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:01.000 Yeah, well, Proverbs warns about flattery. It's about, watch out for people who flatter you. The flattery is dangerous. Yeah. Is there anything else on the. On number one that you wanted to discuss? 55 00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:18.000 I have one more. Hebrews 13:17. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls. As though who. Those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. 56 00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:22.000 So how's that used? And then what would you. How would you respond to it? 57 00:43:22.000 --> 00:44:19.000 Well, similar to the rest. So this one's used again alongside the others. So if I were to ask someone what verses were used against you, this would kind of just make it in the list. So it's used similarly. Okay. I'm supposed to obey, I'm supposed to submit. They have my best interest at heart. They're watching over my soul. They're keeping me safe. That can come into groups as well, who are concerned about sometimes demonic possession, wrongfully, but demonic oppression. And so this one, I've heard more so connected with that. Um, again, they're watching over my soul. They're keeping me safe in this spiritual realm kind of way. They're giving me sort of this hedge of protection. I mean, that's language that can be used. And I'm not. I want it to be good for them. I'm supposed to make it easy for them. I don't want it to be difficult. I don't want them to be groaning. That's of no advantage to me. So, yeah, I need to Comply. And I need to do it with a smile on my face. I need to act like I enjoy it and I'm happy. So, mhm, I got to do it with a good attitude on top of it. 58 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:26.000 There's a verse that comes to my mind on this. Um, Second Corinthians 11. 59 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:30.000 Yeah, I have this in 2 Corinthians 11, 13, 15. 60 00:44:30.000 --> 00:47:27.000 I, um, was going to read a little further down, um, but it fits the whole section because. So 2nd Corinthians 11 is talking about false, um, leaders. And Paul seems exasperated by the inability of the Corinthians to overcome a false leader, or in this case even an abusive leader. So if I read this, he says, let me see, in verse 19 he says, uh, you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise. And this is just laced with sarcasm. He's like, oh, you're so wise, but you're over here happily entertaining fools. And he's talking about the leadership that they're allowing to influence them, implying that what he says next implies that a Christian individually has the ability to say to a leader, you're a false leader, you're an abusive leader. I'm not going to yield to that. And so normally we're in an attitude of submission, yielding. But then he says this in verse 20 of 2 Corinthians 11. For you put up with one. Excuse me? For you put up with it. If one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face, and then again all sarcasm, he goes to our shame. I say we were too weak for that. But in whatsoever anyone is bold, I speak foolishly, I am bold also. And then he's going to go on and basically he's saying, you got to see the sarcasm here. But he's saying, look, these people are coming to you and they are putting you into bondage instead of setting you free. They're devouring you instead of feeding you, they are taking from you instead of giving to you. They're exalting themselves instead of exalting Christ and building you up. And they even strike you on the face. They're, they're wrongly assaulting you in different ways. And this I think was probably symbolic, not metaphorical. Um, Paul's sarcasm only makes sense if a regular in the pew Christian can say, I will not yield to that leader. That leader is doing the wrong things. So when Hebrews 11 is used, it's kind of like when the obey the government is used, it's like, yeah, well, there's limits. Of course there's limits. Even wives obey your husbands. Of course there's limits about this. And the limit is in their proper realm of authority. So, uh, Peter does this in the book of Acts, right? When he's being told, you can't speak in the name of Jesus anymore. They get beaten, they get sent out and told not to speak in Christ's name. I think it's Acts 4. And he says, uh, judge for yourselves whether it's right to obey man or God, we're just going to speak the things we know. And he goes out and they pray for boldness. And he goes out and just preaches Christ anyways. He does not submit. He does not yield to their authority because there are reasonable limits. And there is a hierarchy. And God is at the top of it. Not government, not husbands, not church leaders. They're not at the top. God is the pinnacle. My faithfulness and obedience to him is the fountain from which flows all my obedience to anyone and everyone else. So there's limits. 61 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:36.000 Yeah, yeah. And that is incredibly good news. No plan words there. Intended. 62 00:47:36.000 --> 00:48:09.000 Yeah. And. And people. There's people watching this who are going to be like, they've never been in this really abusive situation, not in a marriage and not in a church, and maybe not even with the government. And so to them, these sound like rebellious words. But if you zoom out and you realize, like, the kind of situations people have and the variety of lives they've got, these are important words. These are principles people need. Because there are times when you have to rebel against authority because it's the righteous thing to do to save yourself and others. And there's plenty of examples of this in Scripture. 63 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:14.000 Well, and I would go as far as to say we should. 64 00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:15.000 Yeah. 65 00:48:15.000 --> 00:49:27.000 And I say that with a lot of understanding of we might not know at the time. I look back at my own story. I didn't. I didn't know. And as a kid, I couldn't. So there's. There's a lot that goes. There's a lot of nuance there, again, for someone's story. But I would say for me, at this point in my life, with where I'm at, where the Lord has brought me the knowledge that I have, I would say that I should. I shouldn't stand. Or so I. I do know better at this point. And, uh, even though it could be hard and I could take losses, again, I should. And when I went public with my story, did I knew that if I went public with my story that was a hard line in the sand that had not been drawn yet. There wasn't going to be coming back from that without repenting of all kinds of things that I should not repent for because I'm, uh, hopefully following Jesus. And so, yeah, it's like, okay, no, I should, you know, I should say what the Lord has done for me and take those losses. So again, there's, there's a time for that. We have to get there and know and know, have an idea of what, what we're doing and what was wrong before we even know to make that decision. But there is a need there at a point, oftentimes in some way, not in a YouTube video, but in general in your life, to say, I'm not going to. 66 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:44.000 Right. Yeah. There could be a simple thing where you. And you don't have to be angry to do it. You just do it because you know it's the right thing to do. It's the. This is what's proper and right. I'm going to, I'm going to plant my feet and take my stand here. Do you, do, uh, do you have somewhere else on your list the, uh, the. The verse rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft? 67 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000 Oh, no, I don't have that one. 68 00:49:46.000 --> 00:50:34.000 Yeah, there's another one, though, that gets quoted. Yeah. Rebellion is as. But I just want to highlight for people to know. The examples we just gave are like, here's where Paul is encouraging people to go against their spiritual authorities because of. They are abusive, they put them in bondage, devour, they take, they exalt themselves, strike you on the face. They do these things that are wrong. And so, yeah, why are you yielding to them? Is the implication of Paul's statements that rebellion is not as the sin of witchcraft because that rebellion flows from A, obedience to God, B, understanding proper uses of authority. You're not rebelling. You're not rebelling against authority itself. You're rebelling against its abuses. And that's the difference between proper and improper. I think rebellion is something. I don't have a problem with government authority, but I have a problem with the abuse of it. I don't have a problem with church authority. I have a problem with the abuse of it. 69 00:50:34.000 --> 00:51:35.000 Acts 2, 17, 18. I'll go ahead and read it. It says, and in the last days it shall be. God declares that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams even on my male servants. And female servants in those days, I will pour out my spirit and they shall prophesy. And the reason I tacked this one on to the authority is because of the authority that any so called prophecy, spiritual dream, word from one to another is given. There are these environments where this framing of the Lord told me is just, you can't push back on it. There is, you're not allowed to push back. It's got full authority because, okay, the Lord said this to me again, I'm either prophesying the Lord said this as a word from me to you, or I had this dream and in it the Lord said this and that becomes the ultimate authority. And that's not necessarily just from leadership. That could be anyone within that, that following as well. 70 00:51:35.000 --> 00:52:12.000 Right. Which, so this, this could easily shift from, um, God can speak to if I've spoken, God has spoken. And it becomes this, this thing where you, you lack the ability to test these people because they are. And they don't apply equally to everybody. It's the leadership that gets it. It's the high ups that get it. The other people don't. If they go, well, the Lord showed me this, they're like, well, you're wrong because look at me, I'm in, I'm, I'm the one in charge. Um, what do you, what do you say to combat that or to help bring truth to someone who's had that verse or that idea used against them in a wrong way? 71 00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:37.000 Sure. So typically comparing what was said to them to scripture ends up debunking it. That's most commonly what happens. So an example that I have, gosh, this one was so tragic. Um, there's a woman who was a part of flds and she was going to leave. She was in a polygamous marriage and she had started reading the Bible for herself and realized for those that, for. 72 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:43.000 Those that don't know the flds, uh, this is like the polygamous, ongoingly polygamous branch of Mormonism. Yeah. 73 00:52:43.000 --> 00:55:10.000 And so she was going to leave. She started reading for the Bible for herself. Was like, okay, I gotta get out of this. This is not actually God honoring the whole situation. And she then, uh, she had a plan and then she had a dream that she left and it dishonored the Lord and such and such from their life, fell apart from there. And so she ended up staying another two years because of that dream and this abusive, unbiblical mess. And so that's maybe a more extreme example. The word stuff is just constant. And I think there's you know, there's room for people to be more charismatic, less charismatic. So I'm not coming at that. I would come at the need to do what Scripture says, which is to be on the lookout for false teachers and false prophets and to discern and test every spirit. And we need to go back to Scripture. And so again, that importance of knowing how to do that is just huge in order for people. Because, I mean, I. I know a lot of people, Mike, who. They end up coming to be emboldened and they can disentangle so much, but there'll be this linchpin that, like, they just can't fully get rid of of. But I. I know the Lord told me to do this because this happened, or I had this dream, or this word was spoken over me, and the coincidence just couldn't be a coincidence. And so I think also recognizing that if we're talking about the spiritual realm, the Lord is not the only one involved there. And so is it just us? Are, uh, we, you know, our brains do things when we're sleeping. Is. Is the word that's being told that actually from the Lord. I mean, there are options aside from it being the Lord and so just being more critical about it, seeking wise counsel about it. Again, going back to scripture on it and just really slowing down. It's a really tough thing to work through with people because it's really difficult. I mean, I have examples of those from my own story. I used to have dreams and my mom would actually document them. They were considered very significant. And they really messed up my life for a while there because I was living based on these dreams. But there was a tell in them because they were after my dad had passed away. And in them, my dad was coming to me and he was giving me information. Well, that's unbiblical. That's necromancy. That shouldn't be happening. But I didn't know that at the time. I know that now. 74 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:11.000 Yeah. 75 00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:20.000 So again, when we compare to scripture, we can see at times, oh, wait, the Lord wouldn't do that. That would be against his word. That's against what he said was good. Or it's against his character. He did not do that. 76 00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah. Ah. 77 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:27.000 And so again, getting more critical, asking questions and comparing the scripture. So super important. 78 00:55:27.000 --> 00:57:11.000 That's where I think there's a lot of hard work is in trying to say for a lot of people who are part of these, part of abusive groups, they know scriptures, but they don't know the scripture. So they know verses and they know how they're used, but they don't actually know the story in context, which is why I tell the story of David and Saul and I go, let's look at some more details here. So you realize that this isn't about you and your pastor. This is not about that. Um, this is a different situation. Saul was literally anointed like oil. And God's prophet came, and an actual real prophet came and anointed him and stuff. And it, um, doesn't apply that well to us. We're all anointed, all those types of things. Um, but working through that and seeing things like, you know, when Paul writes to the Galatians, the onus is totally on them to discern, even the leaders that come to them. And he goes, hey, even if me or an angel from heaven proclaimed to you another gospel than the one you received, let him be accursed. Meaning that it's in the hands of normal individuals to assess, evaluate, and make judgment calls, even on their spiritual leaders. Now, it doesn't, you know, you don't want to turn them into weirdos or whatever, you know what I mean? Where people, like, are overly critical about it. I don't like the way he looked at me today. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about assessing the information and comparing it to scripture, the claims, the teachings, the demands, and comparing it to the word of God. That's incredible value. And it's something that in groups where there's, number one, unquestionable authority, the first one that you mentioned, there is, um, a deliberate cutting off of that. That procedure is considered taboo to do that, to evaluate and discern. 79 00:57:11.000 --> 00:58:34.000 Um, well, moving to the second one. So this one is unity has to mean agreement. So we can't be unified if we're disagreeing. And so the issue that I see here is the church is called to unify. That means everyone has to agree. And so in a spiritually abusive environment, this is going to look like everyone agreeing with the leader, of course, or leaders, if there's more than one. So. And this oftentimes also looks like people becoming the same in a lot of ways that they don't need to be the same. So inward thought and beliefs, but also outward appearances, the way they're going to act in situations. And so you start to see, I mean, think of, you know, any of the documentaries you'd find on Netflix where it's like, oh, wow, everyone's just dressed the same and everyone kind of sounds the same and everyone. And so we can see it Go that far? Not always, but oftentimes. So it removes any individualization that people can have and of course, ties into authority as well. So I've got a few scriptures for this one that typically get brought up. The first is John 17:20, 21. I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I and you. That they may. That they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. So that's the first one. 80 00:58:34.000 --> 00:59:20.000 That's trippy because if you use that verse for a type of, um, we dress the same, we kind of talk the same. We have like a really strong, unique culture that other people just don't have and haven't historically had as Christians. If we use it for that, we're sort of going against what Jesus was actually asking for. Because that's not unity with Christians and Christianity as a whole. That's not unity under Jesus and, um, his teachings. It's unity as if it was your local pastor making that statement instead of Jesus. Let us all become sort of clones of each other, that kind of unity. I mean, what do you think about that? 81 00:59:20.000 --> 01:00:13.000 Oh, yeah, I mean, it. We're talking about unified in mission, right? Like unified in mission and our purpose. We're spreading the gospel, we're worshiping, glorifying God. We're, uh, being sanctified, becoming more like Christ. This isn't. This isn't about, again, how I'm hearing it used in regards to spiritual abuse. It just. It misses the whole point. Most of these miss the whole point. But, yeah, it becomes, um. It becomes way less impactful. I would actually say it becomes more superficial the way it's being used. I mean, what's being said here is really beautiful. It's really powerful. And it also, I guess, I don't know, I'm kind of curious what you think about this, Mike. I've thought about this before of it would be really easy to be unified if we were all exactly the same. There's actually no real challenge in that. 82 01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:14.000 Oh, yeah, right. 83 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:22.000 I think, right. The challenges in us unifying despite the differences that we have. And that's. That's really where it's at. 84 01:00:22.000 --> 01:02:21.000 Right. We're not actually trying to get rid of all those differences. So like in Romans 14, Paul talks about convictions and he goes, hey, one person eats, another one doesn't lady. Fully convinced in their own mind. That's convictional diversity. Um, on those types of things, the food you're eating and certain convictions on not sin, not accepting sin, but there's all sorts of other things that are not sinful but that Christians would have disagreements on. And he's saying, it's okay, you can just be different here and don't judge each other, don't criticize one another over it. Just accept each other where you're at. The Lord accepts you as you're in Christ, and then seek unity in the midst of a diversity that's there. We see this with Ephesians where it talks about the body, how we're not all the same body part, we're all different, we're all uniquely different. That's a good thing. That's part of the health we see, uh, Jews, Gentiles, men and women, and in Christ, none of those things exist. Yet we do have people who are Jewish, who are still behaving Jewishly and Gentile, who are behaving non Jewishly in the early church. And they're seeking like Acts 15, they're seeking to help them fellowship together, but not requiring this uniformity. So I think there's like a number of different things in scripture threads you can pull on that demonstrate what you're talking about, that it's a unity amidst a type of cultural diversity that there is in Christianity. You know, I'm very much like, I'm in my culture. I don't need to go into another culture and like into China and try to make them culturally like me, like some guy from California. I don't know how much Californian I am, but I'm from California, so I'm kind of like a weird. My own culture, I guess. But I don't need to conform them to my way of talking and my style of being and all that kind of stuff. Let me ask you this. What are some examples of these sort of superficial conformity, unity type things that you've heard of or seen to help people understand what we're getting at? Like, what is this unnecessary unity that's being asked for? 85 01:02:21.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Oh, yeah, I'm going to jump down for this to some of the holiness standards and we can bring that into play here. It's not strictly this, though. I mean, I've seen it in. Everyone has to be exactly the same politically, or everyone has to agree on all the same, secondary, tertiary, whatever, you know, issues. They have to hold to the same for everything. There can't be any, any question about that. There's no, there's no flex there. Someone can't be a bit More charismatic or a bit less. Like, there just isn't, like, no, this is what's right. And if you're not on the same page, then you are either not actually saved at all or you're not as spiritually mature. And so, like, oh, you just don't have ears to hear and eyes to see. Like, you just don't get it yet. Um, but stick around, baby doll. You'll get there. You know, it's sort of that, like, bless her heart, Southern kind of idea. And so you'll see some of that. And so it really pushes, uh, the person down and discourages their walk with the Lord and definitely shuts down them critically thinking and, uh, figuring some stuff out. 86 01:03:25.000 --> 01:05:01.000 And we're not, and we're not suggesting here that there are like that, that our Christian views don't give us, don't inform our politics in some ways. But you're talking about like, a required, like, unanimity. So you have a church where everybody knows that you can't touch a playing card. Like, playing cards are just naturally evil and you can't touch them. And everybody's teaching this, you know, from the pulpit. And there's like, the messaging that goes out about it. And then you go, what? That's not a biblical command. This is like a cultural thing that we have going on in our fellowship. This is not something that I think God asks of me. It's an unnecessary. Jesus actually weighs in on this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And he goes, hey, you guys bind heavy burdens and you place them on men's shoulders. Paul talks about it, says, these things have the appearance of wisdom and the denial of the flesh or of appetites and stuff, but they don't actually do anything to stop sin in your life. And when those things become the focus. So the girls who. She'll go to the women's section at the store, and she thinks part of her obedience to God, not just a cultural thing that she's doing, but her obedience to God is, I can't buy half of these women's clothes because I can only wear dresses. And if you want to only wear dresses culturally, go for it. If that's your conviction, go for it. I'm not even going to try to talk you out of it. But if you're acquiring it as a standard for obedience to God, and there's something wrong with you, if a woman goes and buys women's pants from the store, in the women's section, their women's clothes, that's not, that's not a biblical conviction. That's, that's a personal conviction that shouldn't be pressed on people. 87 01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:57.000 We had some people, um, a handful of people who came to us just like kind of one or two, just sessions, even checking of like, wait, I was at church on Sunday and the pastor said that I don't, if I don't vote for X, I'm a fascist. Or if I don't vote for and I'm not saved. And it was like, okay, we've, we've gone too far. We've, we've taken it too far. Um, um, again, so I agree with you. It's not to be said that there aren't, there isn't more conversation that could be had. Um, but that's really extreme. Um, and the people that came to us were genuinely worried because they were like, I really don't know what to do in this situation. Like, this is new for me. I'm young, I haven't had to do this before. And so I just hit the age, right? Like, uh, does it mean that, you know, like, am I not actually saved? Am I actually a, uh, I don't know what YouTube filters out. Am I actually a neo Nazi? I m mean, because that was another one that people were taught and so. Okay, hold on, we gotta, we gotta take a big step back, right? 88 01:05:57.000 --> 01:06:00.000 Yeah, yeah. The extreme, the extremity of it. 89 01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:01.000 Mhm. Right. 90 01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:05.000 Was there other verses that you had for the unity? Uh, equals agreement. 91 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:11.000 Do you want to do that or do you want to jump to. Because you just spoke about one of the holiness standard ones. Do you want to go with some of those? 92 01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:12.000 Your call. You pick. 93 01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:17.000 You want me jump back up? Let's go ahead and do those because I think it makes sense. And then we could jump back up and finish. 94 01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:19.000 Go for it. 95 01:06:19.000 --> 01:07:02.000 All right, so okay, so the no pants for women that you just mentioned, Deuteronomy 22:5. A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God. So I think you largely just handled that. But something that I found funny about this verse when I originally started looking into it was that they weren't wearing pants back then. So the men weren't wearing pants back then either. And so I was like, wait, hold on. Like, what is this talking about? Is this like is, does it have a cultural translation? What do I do with this? And so it. That. And when I point that out to people now When I meet them, they're like, oh, wait, hold on. Okay, what do I do with that? 96 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:03.000 Right? 97 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:07.000 Uh, so it's very much if a guy like, right, inserting the current in. 98 01:07:07.000 --> 01:09:25.000 The groups where they try to, um, demand no matter what culture they're in. Okay. Because culture does matter. If you're in a culture, in the wider culture, girls don't wear pants, they only wear dresses, then that's probably what you should observe. This is part of the cultural sort of baggage that you're sort of, you're given, you know, but, but if you come to like say the US and you're gonna be this sort of almost like your church is almost like a, a special sort of time capsule, um, of not even really a time capsule of the actual past, but a time capsule of your idealized version of a fictional past. Usually it's not even real. Um, that's not what this text says. But if you wanted to do that, then you would actually have everybody wearing Deuteronomy style clothes and what they were wearing back in the old days in ancient Israel, this is what you'd be wearing. And you'd be like, okay, when Peter, when he uh, says like, gird up, gird up the loins of your mind, he's using a phrase to talk about how they're wearing something that looks like a dress to me and they would tie it around their legs so that they could go to work. So they're like grabbing the extra cloth and tying it up so that they could start running and go do aggressive like physical activity stuff. This would be what you would have to do if you want, if you wanted to freeze in time cultural standards for gender clothing, you would go back to that. But no, I've never seen anybody do, and I don't recommend they do it. I'm not making a suggestion. I'm just saying it shows that what they've done is they've, they've ignored the cultural clothing of Deuteronomy, the verse they quote, and they've grabbed onto the cultural clothing of a probably fictional version of like 1940, 50 U.S. uh, and then said, this is what we're going to do. And it's arbitrary is what it is. Um, and it's unnecessary, it's not sinful. If someone wants to dress up in 1950s style clothing, there's nothing wrong with that. When you make it a spiritual requirement, that's what's oppressive and wrong for people and unnecessary. And Jesus, we know he does not like man made doctrines being taught as commands of God, this is something Jesus is specifically opposed to. We know humans, we're all prone to do it. I'm prone to take my convictions and make everybody follow them. And so I try to hold myself back because I read what Jesus said about people who do that, and I don't want to fall into that. 99 01:09:25.000 --> 01:10:03.000 Yeah. And it's used to say it creates this us versus them mentality, even within Christianity. It creates this hierarchy that doesn't actually exist. So if. If some would say, if you don't look like the way we think you're supposed to look like with the holiness standards, you're not actually saved at all. But others would say, no, no, you still are probably saved. I mean, the Lord knows, I don't know. But you're not as spiritually mature, you're not as sanctified, you're not as close to the Lord. Maybe you're more on the fringes of heaven. In the future, you're not going to be as favored as me. And so it does create this division. It definitely does not help with the unity that we're also talking about. 100 01:10:03.000 --> 01:12:19.000 All right, I gotta read this. This is Colossians 2, because it so connects to what you're talking about. Um, forgive me from getting ahead because you may have already had this plan, but, um, it says here, I'll just read verses, Colossians 2, verses 18 through 23, and consider it in light of these things, because this is not, um. This is not a new thing. Um, in fact, I'll read starting verse 16. This is something that Jesus addressed. It's something that the apostles had to address as well. So it's something we're going to have to deal with too. And I have to ask myself, do I have things that I'm doing this with? You know, where I'm taking my cultural thing and making it like a holiness code type thing. So Colossians 2:16 says, Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food or drink, or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you. Insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. If with Christ you died, this is so key, you died to the elemental spirits of the world. Why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations? And if you're like, what is Paul talking about? Here's examples. Do not handle. So don't touch that, do not taste, can't eat that, don't touch you, can't have contact with that, you can't possess that, you can't wear that kind of thing. Referring to things that all perish as they are used according to human precepts and teachings. These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self made religion and asceticism and severity to the body. But they're of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. So then these holiness standards are too low. That's the problem with them. They don't actually make me holy, they just make me self righteous. And it's man made rules because I don't find them in scripture, I don't find them from God. And then I feel as though I have wisdom and I'm part of the in thing that God is doing. But in reality I'm not dealing with putting off anger, wrath, malice, dissensions and covetousness and all those types of things that God is actually concerned about in my life. 101 01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:28.000 Yeah, I think I started a smile there because I was thinking, well, what they made me do was overheat in the summer and freeze in the winter. That's what they did. So. 102 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:35.000 And you would have probably been led to think that, um, the discomfort you were feeling was part of your commitment to God. 103 01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:36.000 Oh, absolutely. 104 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:38.000 It was just unnecessary. 105 01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:58.000 Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll mention a few others because what you just shared responds to all of these. But I want to mention them just the no alcohol is first Corinthians 3:16 through 17. Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy and you are that temple. 106 01:12:58.000 --> 01:16:22.000 So what's the hidden teaching that's being smuggled in if that verse is being used? It's the assumption that having a drink of alcohol is destroying God's temple. That's the assumption, which is really strange, um, throughout the entire text. So this is, I, I, I grew up thinking, you know, I don't want to touch alcohol. I, um, had an alcoholic in the family and didn't want to be around it. Then I was part of a church where when I first got saved, the youth pastor said like, I've never had a drink of alcohol. And I remember saying, I Haven't either. Which was, which was not even true. I don't know why. I was just a little knucklehead. I don't know why I even said I never had. And he goes, you've had NyQuil. I said, yeah. And he goes, that has alcohol in it. Gotcha. And it was this sort of like same sort of thing, this assumption that not touching alcohol is holy. And so I did a study a while back on this topic. I slowly changed my mind convictionally on this, based on scripture. And I went through every verse in the Bible that talks about alcohol, the good and the bad. And people tend to only talk about the bad. There's plenty. But I always hear the good ones too and just showed that no, this was a blessing. It was meant to be a blessing. And you don't have to participate in it. That's not a requirement. And if you have, if you struggle with it, you shouldn't touch it. Yeah, that's for your own sake. But there was a time when God told the people of Israel to take their tithe. During this one feast, they would take their tithes, they would travel and they would use the money from their tithes not to give to the priest even, but to spend on stuff to celebrate. He's like, let's have a party. And he goes, and you could buy drink and strong drink, whatever you want to buy. And that phrase strong drink means that God's giving them permission specifically to celebrate with like stronger versions of alcohol. Doesn't mean getting drunk. It doesn't mean they're getting like head over heels intoxicated, but that there was an appropriateness to it. The new wine. Jesus describes the gospel as new wine. He turns water into wine. And I know people have said this, I'm sure you've heard this stuff too, but that wine was like non alcoholic or it was just juice. This is not true. So the grape harvest happens early in the year and then when they actually have the, the wine for Passover, it's months later. It is wine. Wine. It is, it is fermented. It is not fresh grapes. Right. Or it's just fruit juice. Like that's not true. And others say, well the. We could quote these Greek. I looked into all this. We could wrote these Greek philosophers who talk about the best wine is really low alcohol volume, you know, low abv. And I, uh, look into this and it turns out the Jews did not agree with them. And these are probably just the Greek philosophers. These are like, it's like asking a room full of scholars what they think about alcohol instead of asking the normal people. You can't find out what normal people think. So drunkenness, uh, major issue of sin. Yes, absolutely. Bible totally makes that clear. Alcohol itself meant to be a blessing. I actually think the parallel is marital, ah, intercourse. It's something that is a wonderful blessing from God. That can be a grievous and horrible sin if it's in the wrong context or done in the wrong way. I think it's meant to be kind of like that. But yeah, the assumption in quoting the verse that you just gave is we'll just assume alcohol destroys the temple. 107 01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:57.000 Mhm. Right. Yeah, there's a leap. You're right. That happens there. That has to be questioned before you can even talk about the conclusion. Because yeah, you land at a different conclusion when you do question it. So breaking it down, which. The uncut and undyed hair one too. I know you spent a lot. I think you spent a lot of time on this one. The First Corinthians 11, 14 to 15, if I'm not mistaken. Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is a disgrace for him? But if a woman has long hair, it is her glory, for her hair is given her for a covering. Or maybe it was a different passage where you talk about covering. 108 01:16:57.000 --> 01:17:05.000 I spent a ton of time on this when I did my Women in History guys did a long, it's like six hours video on First Corinthians 11, I think it was. 109 01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:21.000 Yeah. So this one is used again. You can't cut your hair. All of a sudden it becomes this, this legalistic rule of no, you're not supposed to. If you do, then you are doing the opposite of this. Um, which means you are looking like a man. You don't have your glory. 110 01:17:21.000 --> 01:17:27.000 So. Which means that by that they mean never cut your hair. Like they would consider your hair short the way it is right now. 111 01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:38.000 Yes, yeah, yeah, for sure. And there's some variation. I mean, some, some will say, like, you can trim it, keep your ends clean. Mine didn't. My hair looked like a horse's tail when it was in a ponytail. 112 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.000 You couldn't even cut the split ends. 113 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:55.000 No, no, nothing totally uncut, so. And again, others will say, oh yeah, no, you can keep it cleaned up and things. But it really is, it's viewed as, okay, well, she doesn't have her glory anymore. 114 01:17:55.000 --> 01:19:50.000 Right. The. So my, my read on this and this, this is, this is controversial. I do think, I think this is what the scripture says, but I have a Whole video where I go through all the different debates and, and things and ideas and you might say options. I, I think that. I think that I understand it, but, um, but that there's. There's a heavy element of culture involved in this, but that it's not purely cultural. I think God does want men and women to look different. And so we do have the prescription in Deuteronomy, you know, um, and it's really generic. In fact, it applies to different cultures as well because it says, don't have a man, wear the things that pertain to a woman, and don't have a. We're talking about cross dressing here. That's. It's not, it's not a statement about guys wear pants, girls wear dresses. We're talking about not cross dressing. That's the idea. But, um. But with hair, the length is never specified. And we do see a variety of hair lengths that were considered normal, I think, in the different places. And there's even cultures where, to be honest, women just physically can't grow long hair. And I think that people have to realize, like, well, obviously it doesn't apply to them. Like, that's. If you can't. If, if, if a woman has alopecia, she's not like, under some sort of judgment for not having longer hair. That's not really an option for her. There's no judgment for that. There's no shame in that. It's just the way it is physically. The, the, uh, the idea that you can't cut your hair at all or that you have to keep it some extreme length. That is even in your local culture, outside of your church, your local community, you know, is seen as like, that's odd. Then you're probably doing something weird. It's like a good, A good rule of thumb. Um, if other people go, you guys think what? Like, then maybe you're doing something weird. It's know we do want guys to look masculine and women to look feminine, but not some extreme version of that. Just preserving God's design. What do you think of all that? 115 01:19:50.000 --> 01:20:01.000 I have heard, um, women share, again, culturally, depending on their ethnic background too. Um, hair, just. The texture is different. It doesn't grow in the same way. 116 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:02.000 Right. 117 01:20:01.000 --> 01:21:20.000 And so they're not going to have long hair unless they're having it put in. You know, I'm paying a lot of money to have that done. And so are they outside of God's will? Are they somehow less than in God's eyes? Were they not made in his image the way someone else Was. And so it does get really messy and really harmful. It can be really hurtful and in a way where there's nothing anyone can do about it. They can't change it. And. No, they. They don't need to. That's not really what. What it's all about. This isn't what. What everything is hinging on. And so I also think. And I haven't listened to your full video on this, so I have to go and listen to it all. But I also think that, like, I had a, uh, what's called a pixie cut at one point, which is pretty short. I mean, it's short. It's like, almost buzzed at the very, like, nape of the neck. And then there's more on top. But I wasn't gonna look like a man because I look like a woman. Like, I just. It wasn't gonna happen. Um, I just. I just wouldn't. And so I still liked to wear some makeup and I had my earrings and I like dresses. It's like, I wasn't gonna be confused for a man. So I don't. I don't know that I. I don't think that hair necessarily is going to be the make or break for that. Right. 118 01:21:20.000 --> 01:24:02.000 Well. And this is. This is. This is why I have such a long video on. This is a challenging passage, and, um, I would not like. We have to also rank the priorities of our issues, and hair length is a low priority topic. I do think that the verse does have something to say about men and women and their hair lengths today. And I feel a little strange about that because I look around, the way I'm raised in my culture, it's not really much of an issue. And so I go, okay, um, there are. There are feminine and masculine hairstyles. Okay. Yes. When someone's trying to present herself as lesbian, she typically has certain hairstyles to portray herself as someone who's kicking against sort of standardized, um, uh, appearances and stuff like that. Like, they are real things. You know, a guy who wants to present as a girl, he grows his hair long. He doesn't keep it the way mine is or something. That's true. There's. We do recognize that these things send messaging, you know, um, but at the same time, uh, what really comes down to just to speak very openly about it is what does Paul mean when he says nature? Does not nature self teach you that word nature? How is phusis used in Greek? And how are philosophers using it at the time? And how does Paul use it here in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians, uh, how is it being used? That's where this debate goes down. And then you start looking at. And in my video I show pictures of different hairstyles. And the question is, it's such a huge debate. It's a six hour ridiculous video on head coverings. But it was also the topic that was most requested to be open and honest. Uh, my conclusion is that scripture does have this prescription about hair. However, I do try to apply that in a way that's consistent with what I think scripture is doing here. Um, we don't see any commands in scripture. Women can never cut their hair. That is an extra biblical command. That is a burden being placed upon people that creates a sense of elitism and is this unnecessary thing. But there's something more there. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't know what I, I, to be super transparent, right. I'm cautious because I worry that in discussing this, I'm just triggering somebody who's had this concept used to abuse them. And so I, I almost don't want to talk about it with them. Um, and go like, can we not talk about that right now? Like, just not worry about hair for a while because you've, you just had this manipulation that you've experienced on this topic. Um, so for, for someone in that situation, the last thing I want to do is have a, Here's a six hour video on head coverings and hair. It's like not the right time for something like that. 119 01:24:02.000 --> 01:28:19.000 Um, and you're right, there are, there are things that will come up where it's, yeah, this just isn't, this isn't where it wouldn't even be appropriate to focus at that time. And so we don't, you know, if I'm, if I'm coming alongside someone, it's like, well, no, we're not gonna, that's. And it's not a salvation issue. So, uh, we're doing, we're doing our best here. And I think the work you're doing is so helpful because you put all of those hours in that someone else wouldn't even know how to do or be able to do with what their day to day looks like. And so it gives them a lot to be able to think about and weigh. And I love how you brought into that sense of conviction that we have along the way. There are things that I have felt convicted about at some point in my life further down the road that I didn't previously in my walk with the Lord. And I'VE been grateful for his, you know, his presence in my life in that, too. And so there's something. And I'm not talking about stuff that's just, like, obviously wrong or obviously. But, um, like, if there was a time in my life where I felt like, the little white lie. White, uh, lie, you know, of, like you said with your mom, where that wouldn't have felt like a big deal. It wouldn't have so much been on my radar. I was worried about really big stuff at that time, like, God, who are you? And so, like, that wasn't on my radar. But then along the way, that was more on my radar. Um, I used to swear a decent amount that wasn't really on my radar. Then it became, um. And so I think there's also. I think some. I'm cautious here because I don't want to say we don't say something, but there's also, like, I've seen in my, um. I think marriage is a great example. My husband and I would both be able to say this about one another where we can point something out to the other and we're correct, but 10 years later of pointing it out regularly, all of a sudden the other listens to a podcast, is like, oh, my goodness, I just realized. And you're like, I've been telling you this for 10 years. What do you mean, you just realized? And so, okay, I guess now's the time. I guess now the Lord is bringing this front and center, and we're going to work this out. You're going to work this out, whatever it's going to be. And we're. Again, we're. Sanctification is lifelong. So again, I'm not saying that in a passive way, and I'm not, like, it's not that we don't say anything to one another, but there is. There can be a timing to it. And I think there needs to be wisdom in that timing and also some trust in, okay, the Lord does love this person too, and we're. We're going to keep moving along. I remember having to tell my husband that because he. He knew that I had been raised in a cult. When we got married, I didn't know until four months into marriage that it. It had been a cult. I hadn't realized that. Like, I hadn't put it all together. I just knew. Well, I don't know what to do with this stuff. Like, the church has this. But, like, they don't know these secrets. They don't know. So, like, what do. How do I reconcile all of this. And so it was four months in that it clicked for me that it had been a cult. And I remember then I had a hard time being a part of the small groups and. And some of the things, because everything was just such a mess, and I was a mess inside and just hurting and confused and grieving. And my husband is really concerned, of course. He just married this girl, and now she's, like, struggling to go to church, and she's struggling to attend the. The newlywed small group, and she's struggling to read her Bible. And, oh, my goodness, like, is this woman going to turn away from the Lord, become an atheist? Like, what am I going to do? And I remember reassuring him, I want to know God. Like, I'm committed to that. And so I'm. I'm going to ask you to be prayerful and just be. Persevere in this with me. Uh, because I can't. I can't make myself do this right now. Because it's not a belief thing. It's a. It's a trauma response thing. Like, I'm come. Like, I'm coming out of my skin. Like, this is. I'm not okay. Like, I was in the back of the church, on the floor, curled up in a ball, weeping, shaking uncontrollably. Like, that's how bad it was for a period of time. So it's like, I can't do this right now, but I'm not going to give up. Like, I'm, um. I'm going after it. I want to be able to do this. And so just bear with me and remain prayerful. And so I think there's also room for that, to different degrees with people. 120 01:28:19.000 --> 01:29:13.000 I think so, too. I think that if. If you at that state were like, hey, Mike, what do you think about hair length? I would have been like, can we. Can we not talk about hair? Worry about hair length right now? You know, um, how about I'm not worried about your hair? Like, just. We deal with all these other, more important issues. And Jesus, uh, talks about, you know, the, um, Pharisees, like, weighing out their tithing on their mint and cumin. And they're like, their spices are, like, weighing out to give 10% of their spice. And he says, you know, you left the greater things undone. And that's actually a pretty big deal. So maybe a response to the whole uncut, undyed question is like, are we. Is this becoming these holiness standards? Is this. Is this becoming the thing? We're leaving the greater things undone? Uh, we're not Binding up the brokenhearted. For instance, instead we're like getting a ruler out to measure their hair. That would be the wrong response. Yeah. 121 01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:38.000 And then the last one I have here is about no makeup or jewelry. And this can include wedding bands. If we're talking about, um, certain groups, they would say no wedding bands. And this is first Peter 3, 3, 4. Do not let your adorning be external, the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry or the clothing you wear, but let your adorning be the hidden of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit in which God's sight is very precious. 122 01:29:38.000 --> 01:30:05.000 This braiding of the hair, putting on of gold jewelry or the clothing you wear, um, what have you, what do you share with somebody on this to help them process it? Does this mean, in your opinion now, where you're right now? Does this mean you can never braid your hair and you can never wear gold jewelry or put on nice clothes? 123 01:30:05.000 --> 01:31:24.000 You must always look like trash? No, I don't think that's what it's saying. So, uh, no, I think that the scripture talks about, you know, the spirit of the law. And I think we're thinking about like, okay, what's really this, the spirit, spirit of what's being said here. And I see not being vain, not being prideful. We're not trying to get that kind of attention. We're not out there trying to draw attention to our appearance and again, make that be where we're getting our, our worth and our value from and, and all of that. So it's. No, you can, you can look nice, you can dress up. I mean, uh, braid your hair. I also know there's, there's cultural elements of what certain things would have meant here with what Peter was talking about. So I don't know what braiding of hair specifically would have been, but I know in other examples, like, well, people, people who were pagan prostitutes were doing this, or people who were this, were doing that. And so it's like, okay, well, what, what was actually going on here. And, uh, we don't, we don't want to be following that. So, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to go down to a red light district dressed like the people in the red light district and, and walk around like, no, I'm not going to do that. Like that. That to me would be more of a parallel of what's being said here. 124 01:31:24.000 --> 01:34:47.000 Yeah, I. So let, let's walk through that. Okay, so like doing verse, good hermeneutics you're talking about, like, understanding the Bible, just reading it carefully. This, like, set you free from a lot of stuff. That's what we can do with 1st Peter 3:3. So the question we have is, is the. Is the. Is the prohibition on braiding hair, putting on gold jewelry? Is it entirely or is it, um. These are categories where you can fail. Like, hey, don't in hair or jewelry fail in allowing your adornment to be external. Let, uh, it be internal, the hidden person of the heart. Or are they simply. Is it prohibition? Can't do it at all. Let's read it as if it's prohibition and see if we can be consistent in the verse. So he says, do not let your adorning be external. The braiding of hair, okay? So don't braid your hair ever. The putting on of gold jewelry. Okay? Don't wear any gold jewelry or clothing you wear. So don't wear clothes. Like, if it's like, if we're consistent, if we apply that rule of. This is a prohibition of not doing any of these things, then you would also have to not wear clothes. Um, so instead, because we're taking all three of these cluster of three examples and put them in the same category. Don't let the braiding of your hair become. That's my adornment. This is where I get my identity. This is where I, how I present myself and measure myself and. And get my sense of, um, satisfaction. And this is absolutely something that people are tempted to do is their appearance and more so women than men, probably because the appearance of women is much more an item of issue in every culture. Uh, the appearance of women, because probably they're prettier than guys are. And the braiding of hair. They would, um. They would, at the time, they would do these very elaborate braids. Sometimes they would have big braids. So they do. You've seen people even today do stuff with elaborate braids. And they would also weave like gold into their hair. Um, Paul actually prohibits women from having hair braided with gold in a similar fashion, which is also one of the reasons why we know that the head coverings they did weren't completely covered. Like, you could still. They actually just would maybe, like, I'll illustrate something like that, right? Like, so the head covering might just be. It's more ceremonial. You might see kind of on the back of the hair. And, um, you'd still see the hair. You'd still see things. So he's like, yeah, don't do that. One of the prohibitions here is um, the outward and intentional display of riches in a community of people where we're, where preferential treatment of the rich is a problem. James, chapter three. Right. The rich, they're the important. You tell the rich person, sit here and the poor person go over there. And Paul's like, yeah, don't, don't let that be how you identify yourselves. Don't let this be where you get your value from. That's important. Can a girl do a simple braid? Yeah. Yes. That's nothing wrong with a simple braid. But don't let that be your adorning. Don't let it be external. Let it be. Can you wear clothes? Yes, you can wear clothes, but don't let those clothes become the thing where it's like, I'm going to show off. You know, like I'm wearing a $300 shirt. That actually would be considered pretty offensive, I think, to the apostles. I'm going to wear a $300. I'm going to wear a $500 pair of pants. I've got like a $2,000 purse on me. These types of things that I think that they would consider exorbitant. Immodest actually would be the word. Some of the modesty that we, we think of modesty is usually how much skin you're showing and there's an element of that. But they would often think of modesty also as like the. How rich are you presenting yourself. 125 01:34:47.000 --> 01:34:48.000 Mhm. 126 01:34:47.000 --> 01:34:48.000 To others. 127 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:49.000 Yeah. 128 01:34:49.000 --> 01:34:56.000 And what's interesting is that I've heard this said, have you heard this before? That the really rich people look normal. 129 01:34:56.000 --> 01:34:57.000 Mhm. 130 01:34:56.000 --> 01:36:29.000 And it's the middle tier rich who look super fancy clothes and very expensive stuff. And then the super rich guys are getting his clothes at Kmart and then just looking normal. And you wouldn't spot him in a crowd. There's an element of that where this guy doesn't need it. He's not interested in showing it and displaying it and putting it on, putting on a show of it. So I think there's, there's a balance there. Um, there's, there's some examples in scripture that can help us with this. So Jesus had quite a nice piece of cloth that he wore. Now he was not, he was not rich, he was poor, but somebody wove him a cloth of a single piece of material and it was. Seemed like it was made with care and it was a valuable thing and they were actually gambling for it when they crucified him. That, that seems significant. You know, if this was sort of like an entire prohibition on Having anything that might make you stand out in any way, then it would become sort of this holiness code thing where it's like a, you can't do this and I can, like, measure you up, but instead it's more of the attitude of the heart, the intention behind it, and then the effect it has on the people around you. Um, that sort of thing. You can, you can become just as legalistically obsessed with wearing mediocre clothes. And that actually becomes. It's your adornment now. Oh, I have mediocre clothes. This shows how holy I am. And then I'm judging everybody who has nice clothes. And it's actually you're the one who's making your adornment outward now. You're missing the point. It's not about your clothes. What do you think of all that? 131 01:36:29.000 --> 01:38:11.000 Oh, yeah, I think that's what false humility. It's like, oh, you look and it's still attention getting, which is what we're trying not to do. Again, it's not about getting attention. It's not about being vain. And I also really appreciate what you're sharing of. I, um, might be applying this in a bit of a different way, but thinking of people that I relate to now, it's about also breaching the gap to be able to have conversation. And so if I'm talking to this person or that person, if it was not that I have the $500, whatever, but if I did, that could, that could be a barrier. That could be, oh, we're, we're not, um. You're not going to get it. You're not going to. And so, and I'm not saying that's the be all, end all reason here. I know it's not. But I can see in practicality, like, I know when I worked with. When I was. Because I worked with, um, at risk youth before and juvenile delinquents in hospice, and when I was in these different kinds of environments, there's, I mean, there were times where it's like, even just my, my normal dress pants, like, they weren't something super fancy, they were from the mall or whatever, but it'd be, you know, I would do better going to this home in just jeans and a T shirt. Even though it might look a bit less professional, it's. It's more approachable, it's going to be more appropriate. And then there's other times where no, it's gonna, it's gonna go better to, to put on my heels. And even though I don't like to um, and, and so I think there can be. Again, I'm not saying that's what this passage is speaking to directly, but I think, yeah, being able to bridge that. 132 01:38:11.000 --> 01:40:19.000 And let me, since you bring that up, it's such a good illustration you just made. I, I'll add, um, does this prohibition imply you can never dress up nice and do something nice? I, um, don't think so either because we have this continued theme in Scripture about weddings and about the wonder and the goodness of this bride who's dressed amazingly and is presenting herself very beautifully. And that's not something that the Bible is ashamed of, not presenting herself lustfully, but presenting herself beautifully. And we see that. And even you know, the pictures of the, of the bride of Christ and Song of Solomon and these other things that are there, that, yeah, that's a special day and she probably is wearing her hair really nice that day and that sort of thing. But the heart of what Peter's getting at here is don't let your adorning, uh, be in fact, the new King James puts it this way, be merely external. It even adds the word merely translators trying to help us make sure we understand this. Not saying you can't do this stuff ever in any context, in any appropriate environment. You go to like a black tie affair and you dress nicely for it and everybody's dressed nicely for it. It's not some elitist thing that you're doing in front of other people to raise yourself above them. It's nothing like that. But you're making sure that you're not missing verse 4. Let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit which is in God's sight, is very precious. That uh, that's something that you really want. So it's not this hard and fast rule where I check the price tag of everybody's clothes and stuff like that. It's drawing us away from the principle of getting my sense of value from things that aren't really very important. Um, which too strict of a code of a dress code, too strict of a dress code causes me to actually get my value from the very thing that's not important. It becomes the again. And now I'm, I'm letting my adorning be this outfit thing instead of seeing it as not a very important thing actually at all. 133 01:40:19.000 --> 01:40:25.000 Right. It would still be a, like a defining statement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 134 01:40:25.000 --> 01:40:28.000 You're getting your righteousness out of it effectively. 135 01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:58.000 Mhm. And we see that with holiness Standards. That's exactly what happens. Again, it creates that us versus them. We're more sanctified, we're more favored, we're sometimes, uh, saved. And you're not, you know, wherever that particular person or group is going to draw the line. But there is a line drawn. Like, we're not all the same. We're not on the same level, so to speak. That's for sure. That's how it would be seen. 136 01:40:58.000 --> 01:41:07.000 Yeah. Are there other ones that you've heard? Just really quickly, if you could run through a few, if you have them off the top of your head that are in that like, holiness standards category. 137 01:41:07.000 --> 01:42:04.000 The other primary one that I have noted is 1st Timothy 2, 8 through 10. And this is not conforming to fashions of culture. I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. Likewise, also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self control, not with braided hair again, and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who prefer godliness with good works. So again, the way this one's used is don't match culture, which isn't necessarily the point. I think it would depend on what culture is doing. So. But it's whatever culture is doing. Just don't do that. Make sure that. And this would tie into one we're going to get to in a bit, which is being set apart. But the set apartness takes on. Okay, just don't look like whatever they look like, even if they really look fine, don't do that. So that's how it's misapplied. 138 01:42:04.000 --> 01:44:48.000 Yeah, that verse, this is the one that's really particularly about wealthy dressing in particular. So it's not braided hair or gold or pearls. It's braided hair in gold because they would braid the hair with gold. And so you were, you were rich and you were displaying your wealth for everybody by doing something that everybody else couldn't afford to do. Um, we're used to having kind of like a large middle class or something like that. Right. But that's not what they were used to. They got rich people and they got everybody else. And so the rich people, this is kind of a command to the rich. Don't purposely put on all this stuff that you can afford that nobody else can afford that then. Now, if you live in a community where everybody can afford pearls, it's not really that big of a thing actually. It's elitism and it's the lack of modesty and Respectability and stuff like that. What's trippy is to try to figure out how to thread the line between in all these holiness code things, um, the complete casting off of any standards. Because I want my freedom, I want my freedom and I want my sense of self worth. So I cast off all standards. And then you become a terror to others as a result and to yourself even versus the oppression of unnecessary superficial rules and unbiblical commands, uh, and the twisting of different verses in scripture. And so I think the thing is to try to find like, it can help here to find like a community where you have balanced people, where you can see like women in your life who you're like, hey, they do this. And it's not this weird holiness code. It's just actually trying to get the heart of what it means to be respectable, modest in a godly way. Because I see these two sides like the sort of cult like mentality oppressing people with unnecessary man made rules. And on the other side there's like this um, sensitivity and offense to any restrictions upon my behavior at all. When that's, that's not healthy. Like that's we, we are people who do need to be submitted to God. Um, and that even that is offensive to some to say that out loud. And it, and it sometimes becomes that because they've, they feel like they've been in an abusive spiritual environment so that the solution is total freedom. I find a lot of people, they leave cults and they end up, this is why I think they end up in like new age or sort of personal spirituality because I only, I make all my own rules, nobody else makes rules for me. And it feels more safe. 139 01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:49.000 Mhm. 140 01:44:49.000 --> 01:45:01.000 And so there's like this balance to say, hey, you know, it's like the person who was abused in marriage and then they cast off marriage. I'll never be in a relationship again. And you're like, oh, that's sad because you actually lost something that potentially is really valuable there. 141 01:45:01.000 --> 01:45:02.000 Right. 142 01:45:01.000 --> 01:45:24.000 And you don't have, nobody has to get married, don't get me wrong, but everybody needs God. And I don't want you to cast off a true relationship with God because somebody else was abusing it. So a great verse to test that as someone grows in maturity, maybe not early on when they're first just getting out from underneath some oppression, is to take a verse like this and go, what is the right understanding? How would I apply this properly into my life? 143 01:45:24.000 --> 01:47:03.000 Right. Because they do still apply. They just don't apply in the way that they're being used because they are being manipulated again for a specific agenda. Yeah. And this again, kind of set apartness in a way that again, when read correctly in context is relevant, but not in the way, in the way that they're doing it. And I think I get the appeal as someone who's, who's, you know, grew up and what I grew up in, I mean, I grew up in a very legalistic high control doomsday cult is all about the end times and everyone was going to die and except for a few of us. And so, I mean, growing up in that and coming out of it, like, I get the appeal of, yeah, just do whatever you want now. Um, it's one of the topics we talk about actually in one of our, our courses is like, can I do whatever I want now? And we talk about grace, we talk about sanctification, we talk about, you know, these other topics of. No, it doesn't mean that either. I mean you can, technically you can, you can do whatever you want now. Sure. Um, it depends on what, what your goal is. If your goal is to follow Jesus. No, you can't just do whatever now either. And again, some of that is the first time conversation. Some of it, you know, goes along as you go along. But ultimately I, I am really glad that I have not worked with someone through be emboldened who has that approach or at least has stayed there very long because they really want to actually follow Jesus. 144 01:47:03.000 --> 01:47:04.000 Yeah. 145 01:47:03.000 --> 01:48:29.000 And I don't know if it's just what we put out there where people know, oh no, they are Christians. So like, I'm just not going to bother reaching out to them. So we just don't get, we just don't run into that very much if there's kind of a filtering that's going on. But so many people who really do want to and they're like, okay, what, what actually are, are the bounds? Like, it's, it's nice to have boundaries. We know kids need them, adults need them too. We know our boundaries and you know, stay within that and enjoy the best we can within that. Um, I say that just because suffering is real, not because the boundaries are bad. But. So, yeah, I just, I just want to share that because I think there can be. And Mike, I'm not hearing you say this, I'm kind of saying this more general big picture, but I think there can be a view that people who have come out of a spiritually abusive situation, um, they're, they're wanting to just do whatever and they're not wanting to have to really put in the work. And they're not really wanting to have to be honest about what Scripture says, even if they don't always like it. And at least with the thousands at this point that we have talked to at BM Bolton, that is not true. We, we're not seeing that now. I think in some circles you're probably more apt to see it if we're looking at progressive Christianity, I think you're probably more apt to see it where we're landing. We're not. And I'm so glad for it. It's really encouraging to see. 146 01:48:29.000 --> 01:48:53.000 I'm glad. I'm happy to hear that. Because it's, it's a constant fear of mine is I've seen people slingshot. You know, they go from very rules, super strict rules on many unnecessary super strict rules to like chaos. Um, and uh, where self affirmation is the one rule and that right, that will bring you into a kind of bondage. It may take time before you realize it. 147 01:48:53.000 --> 01:48:54.000 Yeah. 148 01:48:54.000 --> 01:49:37.000 But that self affirmation can be a danger to you as well. And ultimately following Jesus is the safe path forward. And the real challenge is figuring out what that really means to follow Jesus. You know, what is the balance that's there? How can I have godliness in these things? You know, if you've been raised underneath the Pharisees and then you spent some time with Jesus, you would have not had a, uh, lackadaisical, loose experience of what it meant to follow God. But you would have had to go through like this filtering process where you sort of unlearned a lot of the baggage, the burdens that they had placed upon you. And he goes, hey, my yoke is easy. My burden's light. You know, what is in those areas compared to those things. 149 01:49:37.000 --> 01:49:39.000 Yeah, right. 150 01:49:39.000 --> 01:49:42.000 But it does also say, take up your cross and follow me. So. 151 01:49:42.000 --> 01:50:41.000 So I know we jumped into some of the specific holiness standards like the no pants and no alcohol, things like that. But bigger picture, zooming out a bit, people are we, uh, have several verses that can be used for just holiness standards set apartness in general. The two main ones, the most common ones would be romantic Romans 12:1 2 and 1st Peter 2 through 9 or I'm sorry, 1st Peter 29 period. So for the Romans 12:1 2, this says, I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercy of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of Your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. So again that's then being used to say you have to do all of these things that we just went through all these specifics. It's kind of the big one. 152 01:50:41.000 --> 01:51:35.000 And it seems like they probably lean heavy on that. Don't be conformed to the world. And when they say the world, they'll say whatever elements of culture we don't like that we're pushing. So hair, clothing, um, those sorts of things. Which is interesting because Paul largely was speaking within his culture whenever he talked about those types of issues. It wasn't like creating its own, creating a new Christian culture on those topics. On those secondary things. It was really not doing that. The world here refers to, um, people under the power of Satan, living in sin. Don't be conformed to. Sinfulness is ultimately what he's asking. Yeah, that's why it says present your body's living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. It's about dealing with sin. 153 01:51:35.000 --> 01:52:26.000 Well, I think even though New Testament passages are being used here, there's this parallel that's trying to be drawn to Israel in the Old Testament with the law of. Okay, there were all these distinctives for Israel that made them look different. They were living differently from the other ancient Near Eastern cultures surrounding them. And so there's a goal of achieving that. But in a way that is again is no longer the case in the New Testament. There's almost this checklist that's attempting, you know, they're attempting to create, um, okay, we're going to check all of these boxes and then we'll look different, we'll be set apart. And in that way people will know that we're Christian. But we're told that we're going to be known as Christians through other ways. 154 01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:58.000 Mhm. Correct. Yeah, yeah, there is that, um, that grabbing of Old Testament teachings and then not handling the actual New Testament applications of those things. So creating our own applications of that. So yeah, like, well, they, they didn't dress the same, no mixing of clothing, you know, that sort of thing. But then Jesus, the apostles, they make it clear that these things are, if they're transferred to us in some way, it's about learning the principles behind it, not the practices themselves. In a lot of cases. Yeah. 155 01:52:58.000 --> 01:53:29.000 Right. And so the last one, First Peter two, nine. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a uh, people for his own possession that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. And so again, you're chosen the holy nation. That's a parallel that I see. Then again, with Israel of, uh, okay, we need to create a situation that's going to be more similar. Then again, we actually see in the New Testament. So. 156 01:53:29.000 --> 01:55:13.000 So what they do is people will grab onto these ideas. You guys are set apart, you're different. But then they attach to it these sort of extra biblical holiness standards. Okay, so no drinking. You have to wear these certain kinds of clothes. We don't just want to have a biblical version of modesty. We want to have a idealized version of what people Wore in the 50s. We want to do that, um, so that we're creating. It's actually what's trippy about this is it's exactly what Paul said not to do about not letting your adorning be outward. And exactly what Jesus got on the Pharisees about is like, you're tithing, you're doing these, like, secondary cutesy things. They're like, oh, that's nice, you know, but it's simply not going to deal with the actual issues that God's concerned with. That is that I put off my bitterness and I put off my anger and I put off my carnality, my selfishness. And the, the old phrase I heard back in the day was like, uh, don't smoke, drink, or chew or run with those who do. And that this was. And that it was kind of like, oh, I checked my boxes. And in reality, a much bigger issue is that I don't snap at my wife when I'm mildly irritated, that I don't let my mild irritations transfer into passive aggressive rudeness towards my wife. That's a much more important issue for me to address than these other outward things. Um, the fact that I'm just actually genuinely caring about other people, that's a much bigger issue. And it affects all of that stuff. It's. It just gets you. We just get off on the wrong things. And so you can have a lot of backbiting and infighting that goes on even among groups that are obsessed with all this kind of stuff. 157 01:55:13.000 --> 01:55:22.000 Right. And then they're not loving their enemies, and their enemies are being seen as other Christians and. 158 01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:23.000 Right. 159 01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:44.000 Which is a mess in and of itself. But then on top of that, there, there isn't a love being shown there. And so it's like, well, that we actually are told. And that is a distinctive of us, uh, as Christians. That's a big one. So things are being Missed. Um, things are being amplified that should not be. And things are being minimized that need to be amplified. 160 01:55:44.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Yeah, yeah. Other phrases, if you're, if you're part of a group where they, you know, they major in minor issues, that's a, that's a warning sign. That's a warning sign. That's kind of like all these things we're talking about. It's just making a really big deal about things that are not a really big deal. Yeah. 161 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:44.000 So agree or you're canceled. Uh, this is the next one. So basically, if you don't agree, then you're out. And I want to touch on this one. There's some similarities with what we've talked about, but there's, there's some distinctives here too, because this is usually going to be used to excommunicate someone and to shun someone. And so it's, it's not just, oh, we disagree. It's. No, you can be cut off from everything. Uh, we have had people reach out who have been put out. A 17 year old put out literally on the street with a duffel bag, no money, nowhere to go. So this gets really, really serious. 162 01:56:44.000 --> 01:56:49.000 What kind of thing was. Were they Disagreeing on the 17 year old? If you can share. 163 01:56:49.000 --> 01:57:10.000 Oh, sure. Um, for this one, it. Well, I mean, it was a cult. It's one of the message churches. And so it came out that this person was, was having questions and that they were reaching out for support, um, to others who had left. And so it's. You're now mixing and mingling with those we've already kicked out. 164 01:57:10.000 --> 01:58:35.000 And I think I heard you sharing this before. I, um, don't know if it was we talked on the phone or me watching you talking with somebody else like John Collins or somebody, but they were just asking questions like, wait, how could this be the case? Like that kind of thing where they go, help me understand this. I found kind of like what looks like something I can't comprehend. If this is what I believe about, say, William Branham or whatever prophetic history I've been told, how it, how is it that this other evidence is here? Uh, help me understand it. It was that kind of thing, right? I recently saw this in a video. And this is weird to bring up, but there is a, A, uh, streamer, who I don't really know much about. I know his name is Sneako, right? And he's openly become Muslim. And, um, he's very carnal individual and all that stuff. But. But Islam attracts especially carnal men. It just does. But uh, he's talking to an imam, you know, the Muslim version of a pastor. And he says, you know, I'm not sure about this hadith. And the Imam says, you are, you are. Uh, if you even question, if you even ask a question like that, you are apostate. You know, he uses the word kafir. You're kaffir, you're apostate. You are an apostate. People come to my house and they come to ask me questions like that. I go, you're not even Muslim, you're a pasti. I've been struggling with this one ever since I've read this hadith. 165 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:48.000 First of all, we as Muslims have to have submission, certainity, no questions asked, no strings attached. This is Quran. I believe it. Do you fully embrace it? Yes. 166 01:58:48.000 --> 01:58:50.000 No questions asked. Uh, I have doubts. 167 01:58:50.000 --> 01:58:54.000 Why? Uh, the Prophet married Aisha when she was 9. 168 01:58:54.000 --> 01:58:59.000 Uh, o, you're a kafir. 169 01:58:59.000 --> 01:59:02.000 If you doubt the Prophet for a. 170 01:59:02.000 --> 01:59:31.000 Second, you're a full fledged kafir. Get the heck out of my house. Because they, they have been trained through experience that the moment somebody asks hard questions, they're way too dangerous to keep around. And so they have to be cut off immediately. And so this is why you get extreme responses to someone who's asking genuine questions and who's not even in a place of disbelief or anything. They're just, they're poking a bit, you know. 171 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.000 Mhm. 172 01:59:32.000 --> 02:00:24.000 Help me get intellectually satisfied as I'm trying to work through this, you know, um, but I've seen it Islam, and we see it with this, this young person you were talking about, just asking questions, some hard questions, kicked out of the house, which is also unbiblical, may I add. You don't, you don't kick your family out because they're not Christians. Uh, a wife is told that her husband's a non believer and she's like, she's counseled, try and make it work. And the same would go with a husband. Try and make it work. Love them the way the Lord's called you to and seek to make it work as best you can. Which means that even if this person is like, they don't belong in the church, they're rebelling against Christ, still maintain the family relationship. And this is something that I think is, I think that can be lacking when we, when we think about reasons why someone might be excommunicated, uh, from a church, that can be legit. It doesn't mean they're excommunicated from your family. That's a familial relationship that should stick around. 173 02:00:24.000 --> 02:00:34.000 Right. And not because they just disagree with something or they're asking questions about something. I mean, that's not grounds. Even. Even it was someone else. Like, it's just. It's such. 174 02:00:34.000 --> 02:00:37.000 Otherwise I would have been excommunicated a long time ago. 175 02:00:37.000 --> 02:00:38.000 Yeah. 176 02:00:38.000 --> 02:00:39.000 Ask way too many questions. 177 02:00:39.000 --> 02:01:24.000 Yeah. It's a fear tactic. It is just a fear tactic. And it is. Oh, okay. Yeah. You are dangerous because now you're actually thinking for yourself. And we need group think around here. We don't want you to think for yourself. Don't start to critically think. That's dangerous. Don't start to read your Bible for yourself and learn how to do that. I mean, there are churches that are. They don't want people bringing their own Bibles to church. They just want come and listen. And I remember the first time I attended church with my husband, we were. Had moved and we were looking at a new one, newlyweds. And he was actually, you know, they put the verses up on the slides and he was brought, uh, his own Bible. And he opened it up and he was checking them to make sure that they had put it up there correctly. And I was like, mind blown. Like, oh, wow, that's a thing. Oh, that's a clever idea. 178 02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:27.000 Good for him. Yeah, I think that's great. 179 02:01:27.000 --> 02:02:37.000 So with this one, we have two main passages that are used. One is Romans 16:17 through 20. I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrines that you have been taught. Avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. And by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all. So that I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. And so this one's used out of context to say, you're creating division. And I'm sure you've heard this. And I mean, what you're doing when talking to me and having this conversation, what you're doing right now with, you know, new Apostolic Reformation, ihop, all of that, okay? You're creating division. So if you're creating division, then we jump to, like Proverbs 22:10. Drive out a scoffer and strifeful. Go out and quarreling and abuse will cease. And so misapplication of what a scoffer actually is. Okay, well you're causing problems, so you've got to go. We need to silence you. 180 02:02:37.000 --> 02:06:18.000 Really. Instead, what this is doing is something a little different. Division isn't the only word in the sentence. And so, um, some divisions are appropriate. Uh, Paul talks about when you, if you drive out a scoffer, you are creating division. What you're doing though is you're saying, oh, but this division is good because some division is good, some division is bad. Romans is going to help us understand which division is which. So it says, watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you've been taught, avoid them. So that doctrine that they've already been taught, that's what we find in our New Testament. Which means that the brethren, Romans, Romans, the Romans reading it, they would have had to use discernment to evaluate leaders, anybody and say, are you, are you creating obstacles that are contrary to this doctrine right here? To open their Bibles and actually see it themselves and then go, and if they are, I'm going to avoid that person. I'm not just going to avoid the type of elitism that's here where it's like rules for me, not for you. I can cause division with you, but if you cause division with me, no matter the reason, you're in the wrong. That, that doesn't make sense. That's not what he's talking about. And Paul does this. He, he openly rebukes Peter in, in Galatians, we read about this. Openly rebukes Peter because what he's doing is not true according to the gospel. And Paul sets the gospel and the well being of the people above the reputation of the leaders. There's a wonderful principle that we have in scripture. The gospel and the well being of the individuals is placed over the reputation of the leaders. So Peter gets openly rebuked. Very embarrassing. This would have, I mean, I'm sure he blushed. Okay. I'm sure that people talked about it. I'm sure Peter felt awkward and uncomfortable afterwards and stuff. Paul did it and he presents it as something that he did that was proper and good. Jesus does this when he's, uh. James and John are like, shall we call down fire upon, you know, Samaria for not letting us pass through there. And he, he looks at them and says, you don't even know what spirit you were of, like how horribly embarrassing this was for them. But yet it was important because it was leaders misunderstanding the value of these individuals because they saw them as in this case divisive in a sense. They won't let Jesus pass through. So here, let's read it. I'll read more of it. Um. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. And by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive. This implies that they're actually influencers in some sense in their communities. And they use smooth talk and flattery. They deceive the hearts of who? The naive. Which means it's probably better if you're not naive. Which means I have to use critical thinking and discernment about the people who are teaching and talking. And this all requires the type of behavior that these groups don't allow, which is individuals using judgment. Um, that is our group doing what Scripture really says. And, uh, they partly, I think, can't handle it because they take such a hard line with little grace on how you have to obey that if people disagree on the particulars, it's incompatible with the group because it has to be total conformity. And so they quote these things like this. It's just misunderstanding what is being said here. Um, one of the things that Paul wrote just earlier in Romans was about the idea of not forcing your convictions on other people. But the examples you're giving are forcing your convictions and then calling people divisive. But no, it was you that was divisive. Forcing the conviction in the first place. It just takes wisdom. You can't just quote a verse and apply however you want. You gotta use wisdom. 181 02:06:18.000 --> 02:06:31.000 And that also does mean that we've gotta open up the Bible for ourselves. Because earlier in Romans, that verse isn't going to be quoted. You're never going to know that one exists. They're not going to talk about that one. 182 02:06:31.000 --> 02:06:32.000 Right. 183 02:06:32.000 --> 02:07:24.000 So we've got to go in and look for it. There are some things that I came across when I started going to church for the first time. There are some things that I came across in Scripture that were so blatantly in contradiction with what I had been taught at home. And I remember thinking, oh, my goodness, if I had. I think if I had read this for myself, which I, uh. Which was encouraged in my household. It was. I just, you know, wasn't obedient in all the ways. So. So I did it. But I think even in that environment, I would have caught it. Because there was stuff that I caught along the way where I'm, um. Like, that just doesn't make sense. And so had I been reading it for myself, I think I would have caught More some maybe. Wouldn't you know, I don't want to push that on everyone because it's, that lens is, it's a thick one and it can be difficult to see, see through. 184 02:07:24.000 --> 02:07:25.000 Yeah. 185 02:07:24.000 --> 02:07:43.000 But if we start taking a look and we allow ourselves to wonder. And I also highly encourage everybody, make it a study Bible because that anyone who's had, where they, they don't really have any background, they don't have any instruction on how to properly read and, and all that, that's going to really help so much. 186 02:07:43.000 --> 02:08:12.000 Yeah. And then do that and then read whole books of the Bible in order. So you're going to read, you're going to read, you're not just going to read Romans 16, 17, you're going to read Romans and you're going to go through it and you're going to take your time, you're going to think about it and try to figure out what it all means and what's he getting at here? Because you don't even realize stuff's being used out of context until you read it in context. And then your eyes get open and you go, oh, oh, oh. And you have a lot of oh moments that are really wonderful. 187 02:08:12.000 --> 02:09:02.000 Mhm. Yes. And then the other primary one Here is Matthew 10:34 through 36. Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against your mother, and a daughter in law against your mother in law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Similarly, in Luke 14:26, if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters. Yes. And even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. So these are used for, if, if your family disagrees, um, with what we're telling you to do, then cut them off, get rid of them. Um, it's used to isolate. So we've got the conformity, we've got ignoring any flags of concern. But we also have, okay, worried loved ones, like, well, you need to lose contact. Um, you need, it further isolates the member. 188 02:09:02.000 --> 02:09:44.000 Right. And then I've seen so much this, this thing. Your relationship with Jesus should generally improve your relationship with your family because it's going to make you a godlier, more loving, more gracious, more caring, more thoughtful person. And the sword that comes, that Jesus talks about is the sword of those who make Jesus the dividing line between you and them. Right. They go I don't want to have anything to do with you because I'm sick of your Christianity. I'm sick of you following Jesus, that kind of thing. But the way that this verse is being used, I think in groups you're talking about is asking you to divide from your family over Jesus. But when they say Jesus, what they mean is us. 189 02:09:44.000 --> 02:09:45.000 Yes. 190 02:09:44.000 --> 02:11:50.000 Right. So they replace Jesus with us. And it's not the family that is dividing. Right? So verse 36 of Matthew 10, Jesus says, and a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Um, this has to do with. Let's say when I first came to Christ, at first my family was excited, okay? Because my. My behavior got better. I was more obedient. I was. I was. I was living a better life, and they liked it. But then they got uncomfortable because they would put on a movie that had some, like, nudity and sex and stuff in it. And so then I would, like, get up and leave the room. And this made them uncomfortable. Like, you're. You know, I didn't even say anything. I just got up and quietly left the room. I was like, I can't be around this. And, um, and then they started getting irritated, and they're like, I think you're spending too much time in that church. I think you spend too much time over there. I don't think you should be. You're getting too extreme, Mike. And I wasn't extreme. I wasn't part of a cult. I was part of a basically healthy environment. That irritation was not from me to them. It was from them to me because they're dealing with their own spiritual battles. But my attitude was one of continued love and continued respect and continued open doors. And that's how we should be. But when leaders start saying, oh, don't talk to them. You shouldn't talk to them, God told me they're a danger in your life. You should hold back from them and don't communicate with them. It's causing you to hold back on your commitment as a son, as a father, as a spouse, as a daughter. Your commitment to love and care for them. Because it's still the Bible that says, honor your father and mother. And that command maintains whether they're Christians or not. Yeah, it's a distortion. Following Jesus is replaced with following us. Them, um, dividing from me because of Christ is replaced with me dividing from them because of this extreme group that I'm part of. So it's what Paul warns about. Men who come and they draw disciples away after themselves. They become the Object of following. 191 02:11:50.000 --> 02:12:00.000 Right. And ultimately then those who are within that group, they're not hearing any pushback anymore. 192 02:12:00.000 --> 02:12:01.000 Right? 193 02:12:00.000 --> 02:12:02.000 They're not, there's nothing else. 194 02:12:02.000 --> 02:13:12.000 Right. This is, this is classic. Sorry, I just got to share this because I don't want to forget. I'm going to share it with you. But domestic violence counseling, you know, there's like cycles of violence and there's specific, um, manipulation tactics that typically people will do. And one of them is isolation. Isolation, um, is a control tactic. Other people might influence you and I want to make sure that they can't. So I remember one church I went to when I first started really going to church, getting involved. And I was going to two churches and they were like, oh, you're going to two churches or ours? And another one. And I was like, yeah, well I got friends here. And then I was usually going here already. So they said, well, you're gonna have to pick one. You can't go to both. And this is the way I'm wired. I just thought, well, I'll go to the one that told me I didn't have to pick. And I think that was a good move. I think it was a smart move. I was like, well, that's weird that you're making me pick. I can go to both as far as I'm concerned. I'll just go to the one that didn't tell me that. And that's what I did. Um, that I think is, is, is a healthy thing. This, this my kingdom building instead of the kingdom of Christ building. That, that's, that's the problem. 195 02:13:12.000 --> 02:15:18.000 Yeah, mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That big C church idea that gets faced in these situations. Right. All right, we've got exhaustive confession. This is what I'm calling it anyway. And the, the message m that be is being used here is that James 5:16. Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. So this is being used as evidence that every thought, every emotion, every action not deemed to be holy must be stated aloud to someone else within that community. So everyone has to know. And I mean this can be, this can be incredibly burdensome where, uh, sleep is lost, everything's getting written down, there's constant needing to call someone every time there's a thought. I mean, it can be to the point where I think it, I've seen in some who have come out of it, it can connect with a, uh, degree of like a religious ocd like a religious obsessive compulsive disorder of like, I. I have to. And I can't miss anything. If I miss something, then maybe I'm unrepentant of something. And if I die in my sleep tonight, I may not go to heaven. I mean, this gets really, really big and it runs really deep. So then we've got everyone. Yeah, so then we've got everyone telling every imperfect thing to everyone else. It creates this also, this hyper focus on self and on unholiness. It's also just incredibly unrealistic, um, this responsibility for your own salvation to make sure, like, I haven't missed a thing. And the other piece that it provides is overwhelming ammunition for leadership to use that information against an individual. And they can use that, you know, to keep them sticking around, to silence them. It keeps that person feeling shamed. And then they're dependent really for their. For their worth and their right standing with God, um, on their leadership. 196 02:15:18.000 --> 02:18:33.000 I've heard this a number of times myself as well, where as soon as they're not in agreement, as soon as they start pushing back against something in the group or just aren't willing to do something that they're asked to do, maybe they're not willing to volunteer as much because they're like, well, I got pregnant, I have kids now. My health isn't as good as it was. I got to take care of my dad, and he's ailed. Um, and then the leader's upset, but you need to be here. You need to be doing all the things that I'm asking you to do. And all of a sudden they start telling people that your secrets because you've been confessing, you've been saying everything. Well, do you know that, uh, she was texting this other guy one time. Yeah. She's got some marriage problems, you know, and it can be used as this tool to manipulate. It isolates you from that community. Because once I tell them all your dirty laundry, and I can exaggerate it as well, I can then create a situation where you are seen as a threat. And of course, the subtle messaging is. And if you guys don't do what I want you to do, I'll do the same to you. I'll air your dirty laundry. What's interesting is this James 5 passage is A. The phrase, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. It does not say, always confess every sin to one another or you won't be forgiven. It does not say those things. Those are completely Added and fabricated. It also is one another. Any confession that you are going to put into play here is mutual. But you never see these leaders confessing to the people. You don't see the leader going, you've confessed to me, Naomi. You've confessed to this leader. And then she or him turns to you and says, and here's the things I've been struggling with. No, no, no, no. This is not uh, one another. This is confess every sin to your leaders and then they will give you absolution. Then you can get your forgiveness. That is uh, completely inappropriate. I think the general rule that most Christians think is wise is to say private sins, you can deal with privately, public sins publicly. If I sin against you, I should confess that sin against you. I sinned against you. That was between me and you. That's relational. If I had some stumbling, that was private, I can deal with that between me and the Lord. And the exception to that is probably I'm fighting an ongoing battle with some major issue and on my own I'm just not able to overcome this or I haven't been overcoming it. Can I bring someone in to help me? Maybe I reach out for some help. Does this have to be your leadership? No. Where does it even say anything about leaders there? Nothing. This is um, just a lot we're adding into the text of scripture. I don't think that Paul the apostle was having confession sessions every Sunday before church because everybody got to get right. Paul's going to come an hour early so you can tell him all the things you did this week that were wrong. I don't think this is happening. Yeah. There's no examples of this. We don't see it in the book of Acts. We don't see instructions about it, we don't see rules about it. And the taking of a verse and adding a bunch of stuff and ignoring certain aspects like the one another part. How uh, there's, there's no one another here. It's always one sided, you know, because the leaders are never, either they think, they never sin or they just will, will never talk about it. 197 02:18:33.000 --> 02:18:36.000 Mhm. 198 02:18:36.000 --> 02:18:50.000 Or they'll get confession of like things like uh, well, you know, sometimes I'm a, I'm a people pleaser. Sometimes I, I work too hard to make other people happy. And you're like, okay, yeah, this is like the job application where you're like, I'm too committed. 199 02:18:50.000 --> 02:19:49.000 Yeah. It's not real dedicated. Yeah, yeah, no. And it creates such, again, such a burden to also not miss a blind spot. I've heard that from people of um. Well what if I, what if I missed something and I didn't individually repent and it's like yeah, because there's gonna be stuff that you didn't even realize yet. So uh, yeah. And it really, I think places us. The result that I've seen is it places someone in some weird way not in a way that they, they want and it's incredibly unpleasant and unenjoyable but almost over God of I've gotta catch it all in order to then versus okay, the Lord knows and you're trying and this is going to be okay. And said it's no, I've got to do it. There's a works based element to this. 200 02:19:49.000 --> 02:22:39.000 Yeah, I think that's great. Observations, statements there. It's workspaced. It's not recognizing what it means to be in Christ and be continually covered by the blood of Christ. And it's true. There's a type of person who's like, you are so wandering from the ways of Christ that you need to be brought back. Like uh, we're not sure where you're really at spiritually, but we're not talking about like this anxiety and this incredible uncertainty where in a sense I don't really feel safe with Jesus anymore. I have to go to my uh, I have to do all these steps to create my security. And it's a very passing thing, it's a very temporary thing. And then boom, it's gone again. Try to get it back. And uh, it's not healthy. It's not a description of what it means to be blameless in his sight. Ephesians says to be adopted as his children. Um, brethren. James first John says if any of us sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous right. If I sin, it doesn't say confess each individual sin or else it's not dealt with by the blood. Instead it's just you have an advocate. There's my sin here and there's Jesus continually, continually representing me, interceding for me on my behalf as the holy Lamb of God who has taken away the sin of the world, including mine. As a collective it's dealt with in Christ. That is incredibly freeing. And then my dealing with my ongoing sin issues as a Christian turns less into trying to regain salvation or get right lest I lose my m. Salvation. Uh, instead it's me trying to live out the thing that God has already done for me. You know, he's washed me and I don't want to keep getting myself dirty But I. But I know positionally I'm in Christ. There's a lot of comfort in that. Before I read Scripture, more when I was younger, I used to fear. I used to be in that same cycle, that cycle of shame and regret and feeling, like, uncertain of, uh, my forgiveness and all that. And it was through studying Scripture, and it was the book of Ephesians, it was the book of Romans. It was going, wow, I have the righteousness of Christ. I don't present my righteousness to God for my approval. There's nothing there but filthy rags. I get forgiven by the grace of Jesus Christ. What am I doing acting like I can go back to my works Like Galatians, having begun in the Spirit, are you not perfected by the flesh? He's like, no. Anyway, yeah, exhaustive confession is, uh, creates this anxiety in your relationship with God. But then. And this is what you're highlighting, I think we need to highlight, is allows leaders to gather, abusive leaders to gather dirt on congregants. If your leader is invasively in your space trying to get you to confess every little thing, that's a huge warning sign. That's inappropriate. 201 02:22:39.000 --> 02:22:46.000 Yeah. It's not normal. It's not what's happening generally out there in the church. 202 02:22:46.000 --> 02:22:47.000 Right. 203 02:22:47.000 --> 02:22:52.000 But, yeah, if you haven't seen that, you don't know. So we're telling you that is not what it looks like. 204 02:22:52.000 --> 02:22:53.000 Right. 205 02:22:53.000 --> 02:24:33.000 Because it need not look that way. So the next one is about healing. And I'm imagining you've been spending probably some time in this area about God wants everyone to be healed. So this idea is God wants everyone to be healed. He wants all his people to have perfect health. Because of this, perfect health is available to us all if we only have enough faith, if we do the right works, and oftentimes if we give enough money too. So this is, I would say, most commonly I hear this connected with physical healing. But I do want to note that it does at times carry over into mental and emotional health. That someone can be miraculously healed of a mental health concern or, um, emotional health. Like someone is grieving and that they're just gonna not be grieving. They're just gonna be really happy all of a sudden. And so it's totally removing suffering, lamenting perseverance. And I've got a couple here that I would say are primarily used again from conversations that we're having at be emboldened. The first One is Matthew 8, 16, 17. That evening, they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah. He took our illnesses and bore our diseases. So I think the key with the keys, there are all who were sick. Like, that's what people are really pinpointing. And then again, the reference to Isaiah about, he took our illnesses, he bore our diseases. So that is being translated to everyone can and should be healed. 206 02:24:33.000 --> 02:27:07.000 But they never actually get Matthew 8:16 real in their congregations. They don't actually get everyone is healed. They just get it as a command or a demand that is never fulfilled. And you have leaders that hide their own illnesses. They got achy hands, and they try not to rub them in front of other people because they realize, oh, I'm betraying my infirmity here. There's. There's so much of this going on. And then this is like, Bethel's an example of a group. That's where this kind of thing happens. And there's just this kidding yourself. You know, I know Bill Johnson's on record, and these are his public teachings. I'm not trying to pick on him or his family, but his son, who's a grown man, who's a pastor at Bethel, has, um, like, a major hearing problem. You know, he has got, like, uh, I think it's cochlear implants or something like that. He has, you know, some hearing aid situation going on. And he's. I think he's technically deaf. But his bill, you know, preaches total healing. This is always God's will. He's always going to heal. And it creates this. This awkwardness when you're like, oh, your son, his whole life has had this major hearing problem. He speaks with a speech impediment because of it. What about that? And so he says, I asked God about that, and God told me he's already healed. And the congregation was like, oh. And they clapped and they said, uh, aww. And they thought this was amazing. And I just think we're not supposed to be delusional. This is, like, I'm not, as a Christian, supposed to pretend anything. Matthew 8:16. All who were sick were healed. They were actually healed. They weren't healed in some metaphorical, futuristic sense, like Jesus actually healed them. The reality is these things don't happen in these churches because that's not what Matthew 8:16 was teaching us. Jesus was demonstrating his power in validating his own ministry and fulfilling scripture. It wasn't this command that it will always happen. It doesn't always happen. We have Paul, um, leaving. Um, who is it? Sick, uh, in Miletus. Um, what was his name? It wasn't Epaphroditus. It was the other guy. I wonder if I could find it. Uh, Trophimus. Yeah, it was trophimus. In 2, uh, Timothy 4, 20, he leaves him sick in Miletus. Now imagine this Paul the Apostle, who at some points in his ministry, he's got, like, a handkerchief that people are getting healed by, you know? Or was that Peter? One of them was. I think it was Peter's shadow, Paul's handkerchief. These are, like, amazing healing ministries these guys had. But here he says Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus, I have left in Miletus sick two things. 207 02:27:07.000 --> 02:27:09.000 Well, that was rude if you could have healed him. 208 02:27:09.000 --> 02:29:26.000 Yeah, Forget every healing all the time. Didn't have healing all the time, and actually just gave up and left the guy there. And he was not ashamed to say it out loud. He was not embarrassed that one of his dudes was sick. He's just reporting that, oh, yeah, he's sick. Because there was not this permanent, always ongoing, total healing. It seems like it came in surges and according to the leading of the Spirit and the will of God. And other times it doesn't happen. Epaphroditus, he almost died. Philippians 2, it says, um, he's talking to the Philippians, and Philippians deals with lots of sorrow and difficulties and stuff. But he says, I considered it necessary to send Epaphroditus to you, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my needs, since he was longing for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick, for indeed he was sick almost unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. Two things there. This was obviously an ongoing sickness. They were able to hear. It was even reported to them long distance. Right. This is an ongoing sickness. He almost died. He, um, says God had mercy on him. Doesn't say God miraculously healed him. He just. We just know Epaphroditus recovered. But Paul was not ashamed to say that it would have been sorrow upon sorrow for Paul if Epaphroditus died. No hiding of his grief, no pretending like it wasn't like a huge tragedy for him to lose Epaphroditus and for them as well, because he's someone they love very dearly. Jesus wept when Lazarus's funeral was there, um, going on. We have Paul the Apostle who's like, I would have been sorrow upon sorrow, not like I'm all smiles all the time. Like you know, this was the experience of real. Yes, he would know that Epaphroditus was with the Lord, but there's still pain in death and a suffering especially for those of us on the wrong side of heaven. So I think all that, all those things are there. This always healing all the time is an unbiblical teaching. It's simply not true. Now there is sometimes healing some of the time. That's definitely a biblical thing I believe, but I have no control over that. And if God wants to do this in some surge and then not do it for 50 years, that's up to Him. He has his purposes and his will. And we're instead taught how to go through suffering, not about how we won't go through it. 209 02:29:26.000 --> 02:30:58.000 And the results of this one, I mean they're tragic. So I mean I already shared that because of our beliefs. I mean neither of my parents sought medical care. It was just they were supposed to be okay and they weren't. They're dead. So. And I'm not the only one who has a story like that. There are lots of stories going back to say, William Brenham for example, that his so called healing ministry where people come off their medications, they're still doing that in the message today. They go off their medications and they stop treatment and they die and it's okay. Well they didn't have enough faith or okay, now we've got a, or uh, someone's, you pray for someone who can't walk, they're you know, paralyzed and they don't start walking. Well, okay, now we're going to try to cast demon out of them because that's the reason that they're not walking. And so it all becomes an issue then with the person who is not being healed. And the fallout then from that is a person does not die because obviously that's, that's big, that's significant. But if it's something where it's not life threatening, then it leads to doubting God's existence, his goodness, um, him loving them, them actually being saved has a huge impact on faith. For people to keep the faith at all or if they do have faith still to again not recognize the identity that they do indeed have in Christ, that's really called into question. And they don't have the confidence that they have any worth and value even to Him. 210 02:30:58.000 --> 02:31:26.000 There's, you know, what they can look at is they can look at the book of Job and God. God here, God put this guy through all this stuff to help teach us some lessons. And it is this idea of, I'm going to trust the Lord even though I don't even know what. What's going on. I didn't do something to deserve this. This is Job's situation. He didn't do anything to deserve it. It's purely the stuff that's going on that is beyond his control. And his lesson was to trust God no matter what. And that's a lesson that we can learn in those things. Um, another example of this is Timothy. 211 02:31:26.000 --> 02:31:27.000 Ah. 212 02:31:26.000 --> 02:31:30.000 I mean, Timothy kind of a big deal in the New Testament. This guy. 213 02:31:30.000 --> 02:31:33.000 I was thinking about him. Yeah. With his tummy troubles. 214 02:31:33.000 --> 02:33:18.000 Yeah. So he says, no longer only drink water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments or illnesses. Frequent. He had regular, ongoing stomach problems. And maybe because he's traveling missionary and maybe drinking, um, a little wine with it is going to help to not introduce. I mean, people theorize about why the wine would have helped, but the idea is he's being given a medicinal prescription because of regular illnesses. That's what this is. This is a medicinal recommendation from Paul because of regular stomach problems and illnesses. He doesn't say, pray more, believe more. Timothy, God's already heals you. You just have to trust him in it. Uh, none of that. None of that. In fact, it's almost as though Paul's not aware of such teachings. Almost as though it's not even on their radar. It's not even something they're aware of. They're just. He openly writes a letter that everybody's going to read where he talks about Timothy's regular infirmities and then recommends human knowledge of substances, uh, that might help physically, medically. Wow. It's almost like when I take Excedrin for my headache and don't worry that I'm somehow failing God. Yeah. It's just not a biblical teaching. God did miraculous healing, and God is capable of doing miraculous healing. It is not a promise that will always be healed. Yeah. And I'll link below a video on this where, uh, it's. It's often quoted word of faith verse M. Um, whatever you ask for in my name, you'll receive. So I did like, a long study of that. Um, and I'll link it down below just for anybody who's interested. 215 02:33:18.000 --> 02:33:43.000 That would be great. Because the other thing it does is in one way it lets people off the hook of actually coming alongside those who are Suffering and lamenting and just being steadfast in that with them. Um, and for those who are grieving, they're then isolated because they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to be all good. And that's just not what human life looks like. 216 02:33:43.000 --> 02:33:44.000 No. 217 02:33:44.000 --> 02:34:50.000 And it really, I mean, it's just like it compounds. I mean, I think of this young mom at the time. If she hears this, please forgive me. You're not so young anymore, girlfriend. We're the same age, but she young mom at the time and her husband, she's very public about her story, but her husband was dying of lung cancer at 32, had never smoked or anything like that. Just. He got lung cancer. You can get it, you can get it in other ways, but twins and twins, two year olds and a, ah, nine week old. And her husband ends up. That is when he dies. So this horrible, horrible, tragic story. She was a family in the hospice I was working with and she wasn't uh, allowed to share with anyone that her husband was actually dying. So every time someone would reach out, she'd have to say, oh, he's good. God, uh, is good, all of this. But he's dying. He's inpatient hospice. And so she had to lie about everything that was actually going on. She couldn't get caregiver support. She couldn't get. And then he's gone. She also didn't really get to say goodbye because they couldn't acknowledge the truth of what was happening. 218 02:34:50.000 --> 02:34:53.000 Right. And that is till his death. They're saying, he's healing me. 219 02:34:53.000 --> 02:35:02.000 M. He's healing me. This is all so wrong. And the pain after, it's extensive. 220 02:35:02.000 --> 02:35:50.000 Yeah. People think it's positive thinking. So it's positive then. It's good. It's good in its effect and it's actually harmful. That woman was left alone. She was left without the preparation she needed to try to help her process through the greatest grief she would experience in her life. Um, the people around her would have inevitably, as much as some of these movements try to not do this, inevitably there's a stigma on somebody who dies of cancer. There's a stigma on somebody who has a medical condition that they can't get past. And there's something wrong with you. What other explanation have I got? I want to be as nice as I can, but, you know, bless your heart. There's like this looking down on them and it's a real thing, um, biblically mourn with those who mourn. 221 02:35:50.000 --> 02:35:51.000 Yes. 222 02:35:51.000 --> 02:37:48.000 But this actually tells people that are mourning even that something's not right about that. I don't try to fix people's grief, try um, to meet them in their grief and grieve with them. When Jesus was in the garden, he says before the cross, he says, I, um, am sorrowful to the point of death. I don't know how you express grief and anxiety in a stronger way than that. Then you went on to sweat great drops of blood, it says, which is a medical condition where you um, sometimes like someone who's on death row before they're about to get executed the next day, they can experience this where you're under such anxiety and strain that you're like capillaries are breaking and so you bleed from your pores, um, and your sweat and blood are mixed and Jesus was not serene and like in a place of anxiety free experience and grief free experience when he went to the cross. And I don't think that we're expected to be going through. We experience anxiety, we experience mourning, we experience all that stuff. And then we're told to mourn with those who experience it as well. In the middle of that we have hope that gets us through. And so we know for the joy that's set, uh, before him, he endured the cross. Oh, but it was still something to be endured. It was like, this is incredibly unspeakably difficult. And I take comfort in that. I actually like knowing about the biblical characters and individuals who experienced hardship and grief and mourning because I know I can't protect myself from it. It's coming my way. It's gonna, and it's happened before and it'll happen again and um, I'd rather be real about it. So yeah, the claim, all healing and then not having grief, that kind of not being able to treat grief properly is, is ah, hurtful to people. Takes wounded people and puts salt in their wounds. 223 02:37:48.000 --> 02:38:01.000 Yeah. I can be deeply grieved as I have been in the past and I uh, felt deeply grieved honestly as I was creating this list, it was, it was a lot to look at at one time. 224 02:38:01.000 --> 02:38:02.000 Yeah. 225 02:38:02.000 --> 02:38:11.000 And I can still, I can grieve in whatever way I'm grieving and I can still remember the hope that I have. Those aren't mutually exclusive. 226 02:38:11.000 --> 02:38:18.000 That's where the strength is. Strength is in that feeling all your grief, but also seeing that there's hope underneath it. 227 02:38:18.000 --> 02:39:12.000 Mhm. Yeah. The next one is abundant health and wealth. And so the message that's being shared here with people is that the Lord wants you to have abundant life, which he does. We just have to define that properly. But he wants you to have abundant life translated to mean health, wealth, and prosperity. You just have to claim it, believe it, and essentially honestly manifest it is what it comes down to. Which is not a Christian term to be using, but there. There are so many good ones that are used for this, so we can cover as many as you would prefer to. The. The first one that comes up is Malachi3. 10. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house, and thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 228 02:39:12.000 --> 02:41:25.000 Yeah, uh, I'll link some videos I have below on tithing. I talk about this stuff, but, yeah, tithing is never commanded in the New Testament. Um, what we're doing is we're taking. And this is very common for prosperity. Preaching always takes Old Testament verses. Rips them out of context, drops the pieces that don't work very well for them, and they just recklessly throw them into whatever setting they want. The tithe was paid for, the Levites, it was brought into the house of the Lord, um, given ultimately to God. That's where they would bring the tithe and give it over to the Lord. Um, nobody even follows the biblical prescription of tithing. I don't know a single church that does it, even though now I actually do give 10%. Like, it's just a habit we have. I think it's perfectly. You can give 10%. That's great. Go for it. It is not a law. Okay. It is a habit we have. And something I choose to do. I do think we're called to be generous. Christians are called to be generous. The emphasis in giving in the New Testament is more about giving to the poor than it is about giving to, uh, the temple. So that's an interesting thing. Jesus actually has the rich young ruler where he says, sell all that you have and give it to the poor. He doesn't say, sell it and come give it to me. Whereas, like a lot of the people who talk about giving, you're always giving to them. You know, Kenneth Copeland, you're giving to him. Benny Hinn, you're giving to Benny Hinn. You know, these people are getting your money and getting your money, and that's the emphasis. You do want to pay people wages and all that sort of thing. But the principle of tithing is some sort of New Testament teaching that 10. The word tithing is 10%. It's just not biblical. Like that's not true. I don't want to be an oppressor of my, of my spiritual leaders in my church, where I ask someone to work 40, 50 hours a week and they get nothing for it. Like if you're an oppressor, if you have people working for free and then they're starving. So yeah, you pay a salary to those spiritual leaders and stuff like that. What's appropriate, depending on how much work they do and that kind of stuff. But this claim that the churches just own 10% of everybody's income is not biblical. 229 02:41:25.000 --> 02:41:26.000 Mhm. 230 02:41:26.000 --> 02:42:52.000 It's odd. So it says instead that you should store up as he prospers. That's a recommendation. So not necessarily 10%, but as you prosper, how are you doing? Can you give? Um, sacrificial giving is a thing, but it's not a command. Uh, not by compulsion. That's what scripture says. Don't give by compulsion, but give willingly. And so me making a rule for percentages for everybody would not be okay in that regard. And the Lord loves a cheerful giver, that sort of thing. But these tithing things are all about God's promises to Israel, blessings and curses. And he goes, hey, you're going to do this whole law of Moses thing. One of those things is giving the 10%. Yeah, well, why don't you start doing that also? You have to give the land its Sabbath rests. God also tells the people that, and he punishes them for not doing that. But I never see them churches telling people like farmers, hey, you can't Sabbath year, you can't do that. Uh, you can't, you know, get the edges of your grain. You got to leave that for people who are going to get the gleanings. You know, the poor, you don't, you don't hear that. They just selectively grab the thing that happens to put money in their accounts and then to quote it to people. I've been in trouble on this because even mainstream Christian churches think tithing is required. This is a leftover wrong teaching. It's not biblical. Giving is encouraged. 10% is not required. 231 02:42:52.000 --> 02:43:19.000 And uh, there's discomfort, I think, in the vagueness of just being generous. And I think at least people that we talk with, it's like, okay, just tell me what I have to do. Because they've been, they've been programmed to do that. You know, they've been taught like, no, you have to. And so it's, well, oh, generosity sounds scary because there isn't a set number and it is more of a heart posture situation of what does that look like for you? And that's going to change sometimes paycheck to paycheck, depending on what your job is. 232 02:43:19.000 --> 02:44:06.000 So, yeah, it may change there. Yeah, maybe you were really generous to your church. Then all of a sudden you, uh, you started paying the medical bills for somebody in your family and taking care of an extended relative of yours. And, uh, all of a sudden you guys don't have as much. So there's. It's, it's more complex than Everybody gives us 10%. But the giving to the poor thing, that's the thing I think that haunts me is the read the book of Luke and you're like, man, there's such an emphasis in taking care of the poor. And, um, when Paul meets with the other apostles, he's like, they just desired. They just told us, remember the poor. Which thing we desire to do as well. That there's this, like, emphasis on taking care of the poor that I think that needs to be emphasized more in churches. 233 02:44:06.000 --> 02:44:22.000 M. Um, the next one, Matthew 7. I think you did. You mentioned this one already. Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be open to you. Health and wealth, just prosperity. Ask for it. You're going to get it. All the good things. 234 02:44:22.000 --> 02:48:46.000 Yeah. Everyone who asks, receives, and he who seeks, finds. And to the one who knocks, it will be opened. Um, that is the. Maybe what we can do is, is try to illustrate it this way is, um, imagine if you tell your kid, you know, you need to be home before dark. And then like 30 years later, he's still showing up home before dark every night. That's obvious. Like, well, obviously there's more information in life than just that one statement. Yeah, you had to be home before dark. I meant what I meant. I meant what I said and all that other stuff. But it's not like that's the only fact in reality. And as you get older, as you think of other things, you know, things change. And actually you're now telling your kids, get home before dark. And it's not you that has to be, it's them that has to be. Because that's because you actually understood what I was saying. In a similar way here, Jesus is saying something about, um, seeking the Lord. You know, Matthew 6 has just gone on to talk about, um, don't worry about what you'll eat or what you'll wear, your clothing, your basic needs. Not about wealth and prosperity, but about basic needs. And he goes Seek first the kingdom of God, and these things will be added to you. The Lord will take care of your basic needs, not your prosperity. And then here he's pointing at us, praying to God and seeking that God would provide for us. And then there's an illustration, um, that is, I think it's in Luke, in the same parallel passage in Luke where Jesus says that it's about the Holy Spirit, how much more will your Heavenly Father give you the Holy Spirit? So there are other passages that also talk about prayer. So I wouldn't want to undo anything Jesus has said here or disagree with any of it. But I would add those other ones, like James 3, which says, like, hey, you ask and you ask and you don't get your prayers answered because you ask amiss that you may spend it on your own pleasures. Okay, so carnal prayers don't get answered. Or maybe, uh, in John's writings, he says if, uh, we ask anything according to his will, we know he hears us. Oh, so the will of God matters. I don't just have a blank check. What Jesus is getting at here is you have access to God. You're going to pray, and I'm going to make sure you have access through me to God. Ask and it'll be given to you. But is it in God's will? Is it something that you are spending on your own pleasures? Um, is it part of God's plan? Is it something that's not going to happen? At the time, surely Paul prayed for Timothy's stomach when he had illnesses and Timothy still had it. Surely Paul prayed for Trophimus when he was sick, and still that prolonged illness happened and he almost died. Um, surely there were other people that were prayed for. You know, when Stephen was stoned to death and Jesus stood to receive him, could somebody have just said, no, I pray Jesus raises him back and just undone that whole thing. Um, you know, we have times where Paul gets delivered or Peter gets delivered out of prison. You know, there's an angel delivers him right out of the prison. And yet Paul spends years in prison in Rome. Weren't they praying for him? There was lots of people praying for him. For him. He's pray that I will be delivered back to you. But he couldn't just demand it, because prayer is not a blank check. Jesus himself models this in the Garden of Gethsemane when he says, if it's possible, let this cup pass from me, yet not my will be done, but yours. So prayer is access to God, the true power of God submitted to the will of God. Right. And that changes everything. Because I don't control the will of God. It's not a blank check. So this abundance, health and wealth stuff, I mean, Jesus wasn't wealthy. The apostles weren't. Weren't wealthy, in some cases, weren't healthy. Paul has this, uh, thorn in his flesh. I pleaded with the Lord three times that he'd remove it from me. And some people try to debate it. You've heard these debates where they're like, well, it wasn't. But it wasn't illness. It was like it was actually a satanic entity, a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him. And I'm like, well, that's even worse. That's what it was. I think it did manifest in a physical illness, but let's suppose it didn't and it was just a satanic entity. Well, I would much rather have a cough or like I have now, or a sickness or frequent stomach ailments than like an actual satanic entity continually bothering me. And m. Paul pleaded with him three times. He asked, he sought, he knocked. And Lord's like, yeah, my grace is enough for you. My power is made perfect in weakness. So the problem is in grabbing a verse, ignoring all the rest of what scripture says about a topic, and then abusing it. That's what the health and wealth guys. 235 02:48:46.000 --> 02:49:24.000 Always do, and they're using a few more. I'll read these through and then if we want to jump back and comment on them, because a couple are pretty similar. John 10:10. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that you may have life and have it abundantly. And then Second Corinthians 8, 9. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake, he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. That one's so messed up. This is not what's being talked about. We're not talking about money here, so you want to pause on that one? 236 02:49:24.000 --> 02:49:25.000 Sure. 237 02:49:24.000 --> 02:49:25.000 Here. 238 02:49:25.000 --> 02:50:58.000 Okay, let's do both real quick. So John 10:10, um, I've come that they may have life and life abundantly. And I've heard prosperity preachers say, um, abundant life, overflowing life. And so it's prosperity. But, uh, doesn't Scripture also tell us, in fact, Jesus, he says, uh, take heed and beware of covetousness. For one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses. See, the abundance of that Jesus is talking about. In fact, this is John 10. So earlier in John, he Tells a woman at the well, I would have given you living water, you would have overflowed with living water. That's the abundance he's talking about in John. He's talking about spiritual abundance. That's the thing he means then the verse on um, his riches being given to us is ultimately his righteousness. Like we are spiritually poor and he's spiritually rich and he imparts to us that. But there's a fancy term that is used, theologians use it and they think that it was something the Corinthians got wrong. And they call it over realized eschatology. And it's a fancy term to say you are acting like you get the heaven stuff now. And yes, there is streets of gold, there is incredible abundance, there's prosperity, there's no more death, no more crying, no more sickness, every tears wiped away. But this is all future prosperity. Preachers will act like that's all happening now and that we can claim it. Um, and so that over realized eschatology is usually present in these um, in these prosperity, preaching abundance and health and wealth stuff. 239 02:50:58.000 --> 02:51:16.000 Sure. And I think we see that in I think a unique way. Maybe not, I don't know, but in a unique way with Bethel, like I mean literally gold dust in the air and. Yeah, so I mean some will take it pretty far. They've even declared bringing heaven down. 240 02:51:16.000 --> 02:52:51.000 Yeah, they declared uh, uh, Redding, California. They declared Redding a cancer free zone. Um, and then Bill's wife died of cancer after that. And they said that they were having healings all the time and they were going to get to a point where they were going to have constant healings, everyone was going to get healed. And it wasn't too long after this that Covid hit and they actually have healing rooms that they shut down. It's important that I say this because people who are part of the health and wealth movement, they have to understand that it's never been real. It's always a promise about some future, it's going to happen. It never happens because it's not good theology because it's not even a promise from God. This is their over realized eschatology. And so there's always going to be the people getting sick and then not talking about that person and that event and trying to say things like, well, God showed me he's already healed. And it's like, but he's not, is not healed. This is a future thing, it's not present. They once jokingly at Bethel said to their congregation, uh, none of you better die. And they all laughed and chuckled. But. But it was just the outplaying of their actual theology that they never. It's never realized. It's always a promise that's not kept. And sure enough, if you were just to pool the people in Kenneth Copeland's church, for instance, you're not going to find a bunch of rich people. It's not like they're. They. They all go from poverty to riches. It's the promise that keeps them hanging on. It's never the reality because it's not biblical. They're not real promises of God, you know? 241 02:52:51.000 --> 02:53:18.000 Right. And then it just give more or someone's sick. Oh, uh, this one really breaks my heart. M. Not that the rest don't, but, oh, this person's sick and so will give more money and then they'll be healed. So those two get conflated with one another, and then the person ends up dying, and then the family doesn't have the money left to bury their loved one. I mean, it's incredibly tragic, and it is evil. 242 02:53:18.000 --> 02:54:06.000 I, uh, I wish there was laws that we could sue those people, that you could sue them there. I would consider him a false teacher. I wouldn't even treat him as a brother. I was someone who says that, give me money and God will heal you. Um, they should be brought up on charges. I wish there was a law. Maybe there are laws that can be used there, but I don't want to have laws that restrict a free exercise of religion. But this is, um, no different than the person who sells snake oil that ends up being proven to be fake. These are fake things that you're lying about, and they hurt people. Um, it's infuriating. And then the people feel guilty. Maybe I didn't give enough. Uh, maybe it was. I wasn't sacrificial enough. Meanwhile, the guy's just driving off in his Rolls Royce. 243 02:54:06.000 --> 02:54:36.000 Right. And I do know people who have boldly then reached out and asked for their money back. Been like, I've tithed all this and I gave and it didn't happen. And they never get it. I commend them for trying. Yeah, they don't get it, though. And so then they're left with that regret and anger that they're working through. And it's. It's. It's awful. It's so awful. So. And it's. It's not as rare as I think some may think. 244 02:54:36.000 --> 02:55:42.000 Yeah, this is. This is. And you. Did you get this? Do they often talk about, like, the seed faith teachings and like, oh, this is they like to use these metaphors that you do find in scripture, a mustard seed and things like that. But then they use them in ways you don't find in Scripture. Uh, that the money you're giving is the seed and it's a foul of faith. And then God's going to do this other thing for you. For that, they've got to go to selected out of context Old Testament verses and, um, ignore the New Testament examples that are contrary to it. Yeah. In the New Testament, if somebody went around saying, God will heal you if you'll give me money, that is no different than Simon the Sorcerer telling the apostles, give me the gift of the holy, the ability to give the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, how much money do you want? And they don't say 10% or something like that. They don't say a sacrificial seed gift. He says, you are a sick. My paraphrase, you are a sick, twisted man. God's going to judge you. You better repent. That is the only response to someone like that. 245 02:55:42.000 --> 02:55:47.000 Did you want to touch on the second Corinthians 8, 9 before moving to the last one for the section? 246 02:55:47.000 --> 02:55:56.000 What. Well, let me ask you this. What was, what was your response to people? Or do you have, like a response, um, that you usually give to people if they share this verse or bring it up? 247 02:55:56.000 --> 02:56:22.000 Sure. So the context of this one, I mean, we're, we're looking at what true wealth actually is, which, which is Jesus. So we're not, we're not talking about money, so we're talking about that heavenly glory that's, you know, he temporarily laid it aside for us. He did that by choice. And so he became poor through the incarnation. We became rich then through salvation through him. So again, this doesn't have anything to do with finances. 248 02:56:22.000 --> 02:58:24.000 In 1 and 2 Corinthians, Paul does talk about the issue of wealth. And there's kind of like this, this. He does some sarcastic things in the letters to the Corinthians, but there's kind of this stuff where he talks about this saying, um, like, oh, you're rich and you're doing great and you have all this stuff. And he goes, oh, I wish you were. I wish you really were. We want you to be that. There's this layer of impulse teaching where he's got two different kinds of riches in mind, like what you're talking about. You know, there's like the physical riches, which are not actually that important, and then there's these sort of spiritual riches, and that's the thing that. Where the real gold is and the real value is. And, um, and James talks about this too. He says, like, let the rich glory in his humiliation and let the poor in their exaltation. And this is. I love this verse. It's super puzzling to people, I know, but it's. The idea is that the rich person can go to church and be like, my riches mean nothing here. I mean nothing. And so I'm glorying in that because I have something better in Christ that's so much more valuable. The humiliation is that what I'm. What I'm lifted up with all these. All this while, it just means nothing. Um, and then the poor walks in and he's like, my poverty means nothing. I have the riches of Christ. And so one's glorying in his exaltation, one in his humiliation, because their real value is being in Christ. To say that Jesus became poor, that we might become financially wealthy in this life, goes contrary to the teachings of Jesus, goes contrary to the example of the apostles, and is actually warned about in Scripture, those who think that godliness is means of gain. And he says, this is a dangerous thing. People who think that their godliness is going to be a means of financial gain for them or some other sort of carnal gain. This is a huge danger that people have. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, whereas that's the kind of stuff that's never really taught about. I've never heard a prosperity preacher teach about what the love of money is. Um, they. It's too close to home, I think. Yeah, yeah. 249 02:58:24.000 --> 02:58:30.000 I'm not sure how they could without affecting their own ministry goals. 250 02:58:30.000 --> 02:58:38.000 They have to reinterpret it to mean something other than what it means. Yeah, yeah. 251 02:58:38.000 --> 02:58:46.000 Yeah. True prosperity gospel people don't teach tithing. They're wanting way more than 10% as well. Yeah. 252 02:58:46.000 --> 02:59:29.000 Uh, yeah, they want everything. Uh, it's effectively a pyramid scheme, right? Because it's. The people who actually get rich are the people at the top. And the rest are just putting money in and they're doing so with carnal motives. The sad thing is that the prosperity preacher actually teaches people to be lovers of money and to be focused on those things and not to see the true value of Christ. To be able to look at your wealth and be like, this is nothing. It doesn't mean anything. M. Instead, it becomes the focus and the reason. So you cannot serve God and mammon. Jesus actually says mammon there, which is like a deifying money in a way. That's metaphorically meant to show how it can become an idol. Yeah. 253 02:59:29.000 --> 03:01:31.000 The last one I have for this one is Second Corinthians 9, 6, 15. So this is a longer section, but it's talking about. It's the sowing and reaping one. So whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. And whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you so that having all sufficiency in all things and all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written, he has distributed freely. He has given to the poor. His righteousness endures forever. He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God. For the ministry of the service is not only supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God. By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others while they long for you and pray for you because of the surpassing grace of God upon you. Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift. Yeah, the focus here is the sowing and reaping, and they turn it into a guarantee of so more, because then you're. You're going to reap more. And again, this is talking about financial gain, material gain, perfect health, depending on. On the conversation. So there's. It's very, um. There's something very witchy about it to me, of if you do this and this is magically going to happen, and it's a guarantee so you're really in control of God because he's got to do this. If you do that, it's like, well, he doesn't. He doesn't. Now he is the same yesterday and forever, and he's not going to lie and he's faithful and he's going to. But did he actually say that? So if he didn't actually say that, then he doesn't have to. He's not going to be faithful to it because he didn't say it. 254 03:01:31.000 --> 03:06:12.000 So the Second Corinthians passage, um, I guess the assumption that we can identify is that they think that what you sow is what you reap. Um, not reciprocal like equivalents, but actual. You reap more of exactly the same thing you sowed. So if you sowed money, you reap money. If this was a rule, there would be no poor Christians who also are givers. It wouldn't exist, Right. If this was some kind of rule. The thing they're sowing to is they're literally giving to the poor. He's like, hey, you guys are going to gather a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem. But the best thing for the poor would be for them to give money to somebody else. If this was like some sort of magical sowing and reaping. But in the passage, if you sow sparingly, you'll reap sparingly. But it doesn't say you'll reap the same exact thing you sow. So that you will. If you give money, you'll get more money. Like, you're investing in, like, a profitable stock. Um, instead it's you will, if you sow sparingly, whatever it is you're going to reap. Whatever result of that sowing, it will also be a sparing reaping. But what is it? Well, the one illustration is verse 10. Um, the harvest of your righteousness. But when you sow and then it grows the crop, then you harvest it in. And what are you harvesting? He doesn't say harvest of your wealth. He said, the harvest of your righteousness. These are people who are like Jesus says. He says, store up treasures in heaven. Not where moth ah and rust destroy, and thieves break in and steal. So that when I sow into the kingdom, I'm reaping this harvest, this future harvest of righteousness, my own obedience to Christ, my own, um, service to the Lord, but also this sort of future, when I have the treasures in heaven that I've stored up, and the way you can store up is you give to poor people, you're doing well, and someone else is hurting, and you give to them. And you're like, the Lord will take care of me, but I don't mean he's going to make me rich. Imagine, um, that this, if the rich young ruler, if he believed this, then Jesus command to him would have been, so, sell all that you have, give it to the poor, and I'll make you even richer. That would have been the real deal with the rich young ruler, right? Sell it all, Give it to the poor, and you're going to have, like, 10 times as much seven times as much. Let's use a. They like the number seven. Let's use that seven times as much, you know, um, but that's not what was happening. If that guy sold all he have and followed Jesus, he would have been poor and he would have been provided for his food and clothing, but he would have been poor. So that's just, that's not what it's about. Also in Paul's letters to the Corinthians, he talks about, um, uh, each man's work will be tested one day, right? And some like gold, wood, hay, stubble, like these precious gems, these different qualities they have. It'll be like fire tests it. And only that which is precious in the eyes of God will actually survive. Only that which was done in Christ properly will survive. So you combine these things together and you don't just grab a verse out of context, you go, oh, I'm harvesting righteousness. I'm not harvesting more money for the money I give. And it's like it doesn't occur to people that if you tell people, give and you'll get more money back. You've incorporated the love of money into giving. So it's not even, it's faith giving. I'm giving by faith. But it's not sacrificial, it's not a sacrifice. It's a guaranteed investment. It's better than the stock market because God promised, I'll make more money off of this. But it doesn't happen. You could look at the person who sold their home and gave all the money away. And uh, you know what? They have no home. M. And they may have God provide for them, but especially if they're doing it for financial stuff, I don't even know what God's going to do. He might just teach them a lesson in that. Yeah, you just don't see this. And why is it that these people always want you to give money to them? Paul's like, uh, I'm okay, you know, I've learned to be abased. I've learned to abound. I've learned to be full or to suffer in need. I've, um, learned to do all things through him who strengthens me, so he can do all things through Christ in the biblical sense of going through suffering as well. But Paul's taking an offering for poor saints in Jerusalem. He's not, he's not going to buy a 10 million dollar mansion and a second jet. Um, but some of these guys, I think they work to try to look like they're poor even when they're not these church leaders. Have you experienced that? Have you seen that before? 255 03:06:12.000 --> 03:07:26.000 Oh, yeah, yeah. There's certain, I would say certain groups where that's, that's kind of the culture of how they handle it. So you have no, I mean, people have no idea how much these guys are worth. I think of one group where their church, I'll call it, is. It's set up as an LLC and uh, a 501C3. And they. So they have no oversight is the point I'm making in that. So there, there isn't any kind of checks and balances and accountability. And so they're receiving giving from people. They've actually sent out giving statements, which is definitely problematic because they're not a charitable organization. But they live in a way that looks like they don't have a lot. You know, they dress very normal. They just. But because it's an llc, you can pull records and they're worth multi million dollars and, and all the money is actually in their name. Because again, it's not a 501C3. If they dissolve, the money's theirs. They don't have to, you know, if 1 501c3 dissolves, you've got to donate whatever funds there are to a different one. They don't have to do that. They actually just get to walk with it all. 256 03:07:26.000 --> 03:09:22.000 Yeah, I mean, that's my ministry. If, if it was shut down, we'd have to give the money to another organization that matches the same mission statement that I have on record so that it's like, it continues. The purpose of the, of the donation is still accomplished through someone else. You know, it's not my money, it's not my bank account. Um, right. But the, uh, yeah, the, the prosperity stuff, um, it doesn't, all this stuff, it doesn't prepare people to deal with the hardships of life. It, it teaches them to deny them and then often to aggravate them and make them worse. Because you have people who start feeling like, maybe it's better if I don't take my medication. That's an act of faith. Okay. Maybe, um, instead of going to the hospital, I'm going to go to this church gathering and this meeting instead, because I've guaranteed healing and I just have to step out or I'm going to deny the fact that I'm dying or that my spouse is dying. It makes people incapable of mourning with each other. You have people who are thinking they're going to give their way out of debt. This is what Benny Hinn has Been on record saying many times, even recently, um, the best way to get yourself out of debt is to give. You know, like, take what you have and effectively don't pay your bills, just donate to me and then God will supply what you need. And it's just there's. Those are similar to the words we have in the Bible, but it's not the meaning of those words. Paul takes offerings for the poor, not offerings from the poor. That's not his focus. The widow's might, she gives like this might. And, um, the thing is that, yeah, she gave out of a sacrifice that was a bigger deal than all the money other people gave. But it's not as though he looked at her and said, see how she gave her last penny? Now she's going to receive a big check in the mail from a mysterious donor tomorrow, and then she'll have all kinds of wealth. It's like, that's not part of the deal. It's not something that's promised. 257 03:09:22.000 --> 03:09:49.000 Well, one other comment I want to make on this before we move to the next one is too often the people who have given, and they may have given basically everything, if they then find themselves in financial hardship and they have a need and they then go to that leadership for help, for financial help, they get declined. So they're not actually then getting help from the community that they've given to. 258 03:09:49.000 --> 03:10:02.000 That's. It's the reverse of what we see in Scripture then of helping people. I mean, Paul's like talking to Timothy about which widows they're going to take care of financially because they really did care about taking care of people. 259 03:10:02.000 --> 03:12:13.000 So common, uh, purse acts 2:44 through 2:45. And all who believed were together and had all things in common and they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all as any had need. So the way we're seeing this passage used is acts is prescriptive, not descriptive. It is the best of the best way for Christians to be living together. And everyone's going to pull everything together, um, to the degree of one community, well, a couple communities that come to mind. The checks, like, people don't even see their checks. I mean, it's just everything's going like direct deposit into, you know, a big bank account that the elders have, have full control over. And so again, this is seen as this is the best way to do it and the issue that comes out of it, because I, I wouldn't like if someone wants to do. If there are people who want to have a common purse approach and that, that works for everyone. And it's, it's done in a healthy way where people want to leave, they're sent on their way, they're set up so that they can. And I, I mean, I would. I don't see an issue with that. I think people can make choices there. But where it is an issue is that, uh, leadership, when they have full control of the finances of the entire community and then they don't want people to leave. Individuals then can't leave because they don't have anything. I mean, they don't have. If they've worked for that community, they don't have a, uh, they don't have references. If they weren't building their own credit or whatever. They can't get an apartment if they don't have any money, they can't get a car to even get out of there. I mean, if everything was together, it's that complete control. And so we've, we've known people who have had to duck out in the middle of the night and get a phone and call for someone to come pick them up. And it's really tough to rebuild after that, especially depending on how old the person is, um, and how much of a gap they're going to have to be able to get themselves out there again to get jobs and, and housing and all those sorts of things. So that's the, the problem that results from this situation. 260 03:12:13.000 --> 03:16:14.000 Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. You say it's. They take it as prescriptive and it is descriptive. And one way to test if it's prescriptive is you ask, is it telling us, um, does it in here say that, um, we're all supposed to do this, or is. It just says. It just describes what they've done. It just describes what they did. But moreover, we have, I think, some pretty solid explanations as to why they did it. Um, for one thing, they were. This was after Pentecost, right? So the Jews come to Jerusalem for a few times a year. One of them is Passover. So they're there when Jesus is crucified. Tons of Jews are all. But then they come back in Pentecost, this next Jewish feast, and that is when the Holy Spirit descends. They speak in tongues. Tons of people get saved, give their lives over to the Lord. And that's what we're reading about in Acts 2. There's a bunch of people who, in other words, have traveled away from home and are staying in Jerusalem only for a few days. Then they're going to go back Home, but they get saved and they want to sit at the apostles feet and get discipled. And the only way to do this is to pool resources ultimately because they don't have, they're not at home, they don't have their jobs that they can go to. They just traveled. It's like imagine if you had to extend a vacation for some really important reason and you wanted to stay there for maybe months instead of a week, um, so you could be taught by the apostles. So it seems like that's the reason why they did this. And some people sold things, possessions, belongings, and then they're just sharing like community resource. This was a wonderful thing. There was nothing wrong with it. Um, I've heard some try to demonize it and go, well, that's why they ended up poor later on. That's why Paul's taking offerings for the poor in Jerusalem. I wouldn't, I don't want to assume too much. I don't want to go beyond what the scripture says. It presents it like it's a wonderful thing, but not a required thing and not a regular Christian thing. Paul never, uh, commands for the disciples to do this. In his many epistles to the churches, he actually talks about people who are rich in this age not to be haughty. Warn the people who are rich not to be haughty. He's talking about. So when you have churches outside of this exact setting, we know there was rich people, we know there was poor people, and they were worshiping together, meaning they continue to maintain their own possessions. It was not a rule. The commands about the riches, the commands about the poor, this only works if they don't have this community socialistic kind of environment. Um, and we see that continually in Scripture. We see people having their own possessions. They can give or not give according to their choices. I know Ananias and Sapphira, shortly after this, get in a lot of trouble, but they're in trouble for lying. They could have just kept the money, they could have just kept the home. They could have just not. But what they're in trouble for is they get some resources from selling a home. They pretend they're sharing with everybody, but they're holding back, which means they have disproportionate benefits. Everybody has pooled everything. They kept back a bunch for themselves, but they're still taking from the collective pool. And so this is, it's like theft. Um, moreover, it's lying to the Holy Spirit. Peter says, but yeah, there's no command in scripture about this. Um, we know Lydia was a seller of purple. She was well off. Um, we know that they met in Mark's mom's house early on in the book of Acts. They continue to do so. Uh, we just don't see this. There's nowhere where it's a rule and there's consistent teaching through Scripture that shows there's still differentiation between rich and poor in the church. People still have possession of their own funds. The fact that in Corinth Paul says, let each one store up as he prospers and you guys can gather. I don't want collections when I come. This means that the church organization, the leaders, the elders, did not have possession of people's money. The fact that they have to make collections is because the checks are not going to the church leaders or the equivalent of that in ancient times. I don't know if there's more you'd want to add to that. These are some of the things that I've tried to deal with and say, yeah, it's not a bad thing. It's not a prescriptive thing. 261 03:16:14.000 --> 03:18:39.000 Mhm. I think you've touched on it. I had a note about Ananias and Sapphira and some of those examples where we see people didn't literally get rid of absolutely everything. I mean not everyone did anyway. We know that they didn't because we see references later on in Acts where people had some things. The house of Jason is referenced in Acts 17, 5 and the reference you made of where was it Acts 12:12 where they gathered together and they were praying in the house of Mary, the mother of John, whose other name was Mark. So we see these references, so we know it's not that everyone became homeless and they all pitched tents. Then like everyone sold all their houses and then they. That's not actually what happened. I think there's an ethic here of if I have access, I, I share it and I give it to those in need. I don't just hoard it all for myself. But to say that okay, this is the best way to live is you have to get rid of everything and then you give these set leadership. Whomever's in there, whether it's one person or a bunch of people, oftentimes it, it is a, ah, collective. But now they have full decision making over everything. It's a lot, It's. I would put it this way, it's risky. It's a risky thing to do because that's a lot of money. And we know how, how money can affect people when they have a lot of money. And we know how power and control can affect people. And typically what I see is escalation of these situations over time where the more money, the more power and control, the more they want and the more they think they can do and the more they can get away with and then the more people are being taken advantage of. Of. And so it's again, I think it's an incredibly high risk situation. I don't think the idea of common purse in and of itself is like, no, that's unbiblical. You can't do it. No, I wouldn't say that at all. I just think it. You'd, uh, have to have a lot in place to make sure that it's going to be done well. And again, what I do see instead is people aren't, aren't able to leave if they're going to leave. They're not really sent away with anything. It's like, well, where's the, where's the severance package? Where's the, like, whatever it is, like, how are they. Like, let's send them on their way. Well, you know, if we're not a cult, then people should be able to go be a part of again, the big C church somewhere else and have us wish them well in doing so. Um, and if they've given us and we've lived communally, how are we helping them to do that? How are we kind of blessing them on their way? 262 03:18:39.000 --> 03:20:21.000 Yeah, and we could, we could. That's so true, all of it. And we could even add other stuff to it and say, you know, this seems to have been a temporary situation. Uh, it doesn't seem like it continues even on in Jerusalem. As far as we know. These people eventually scatter, there's persecution that happens and they end up scattering. But they don't carry this communal living to my knowledge and to any evidence I see in Scripture. Anywhere else we see Simon, leader in acts. He's at the house of. Or, uh, Peter, you know, Simon Peter. We see him at the house of Simon the Tanner. So here's a guy who's got a house, he's got a job, he's working, he's doing these things, he's paying his own way. Um, he has his own house. Simon's just staying there. It's not Simon's house. It's not, it's not everybody's house. It's just that guy. The, um. There are those who take this and use it actually more often nowadays. I hear it amongst people who are trying to make a case for like Governmental socialism, um, that's even further from this. It's just not about that. Like, just please, please don't push your political agendas onto the pages of Scripture. That's the idea. The forceful taking of was never the case. There's nobody's money, they take forcefully. There's no government agency taking it and redistributing wealth or something like that. This is a very organic group of people who just got radically saved. They want to stick around the apostles, they don't want to go back home to finance their continued, you know, sojourn in Jerusalem from other places around Israel. They sell things and then they commute. They gather their resources and they pull them together. And it was a beautiful thing. They were at the apostles feet and that was a wonderful time. And that's it. It's just descriptive. 263 03:20:21.000 --> 03:20:25.000 Mhm. Yeah. And that's a beautiful image. 264 03:20:25.000 --> 03:20:26.000 So it is. 265 03:20:26.000 --> 03:23:21.000 The next one, the next one can relate. Um, I've seen these two go together. This idea that anyone trying to hold someone accountable, anyone kind of pushing back, anyone questioning, that's classified as being persecution. So if you're not supportive of this community that we've created, then you're persecuting us and you need to be treated as such that you are persecutors. And the verse that's used for this One is Acts 14:21 through 22. When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and Iconium, into Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. I know this is so loosely connected, but the connection that's being made is, oh, this is a. I've come and I've done what I'm supposed to do. And now someone is pushing back and this is a tribulation that I must now go through center the kingdom of God. And the result, I would say the two examples, Acts 5:41. Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. And Acts 1 through 4 and Saul approved of his execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. And they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. But Saul was ravaging the church and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to them to prison. So these Examples of being persecuted which are incredibly different than someone saying, hey, I think what you're doing maybe is unbiblical. I think what you're doing is a problem. Um, this is real persecution. I think a lot of us, um, here, fortunately, thank the Lord, don't experience. But ultimately to kind of conclude what, what I'd like to share on this piece is the result is an inability of the church to provide accountability and discipleship as well as this increased isolation, again like we've already talked about, because the isolation then breeds more of an increase in control, then leads to more radical teachings and abuses. Like I said, that escalation. So a big issue I see here though Mike, is that when I look at scripture, I look at these examples of persecution. This isn't being used in reference to Christians with uh, other Christians, like this isn't within the family of Christ, of us saying, hey, I have concerns here. Hey, I think this is unbiblical or hey, we, we, this was abusive and we need to call the police or we need to. Whatever this is. This is about unbelievers with believers. And it's also not over non primary things like it's not over these little like kind of tit for tat kind of stuff that I can see it get attached to. So I'll leave it there for now. But yeah, curious what you have to say. 266 03:23:21.000 --> 03:24:27.000 Those are really great points. You're so spot on. Right. I mean I agree 100% with you at least that um, the persecution is talking about non believers or those who are fighting against the gospel and the spreading of the gospel and that's the persecution that they're going to endure. And that's what Acts shows over and over again. That's what Jesus warned them about and that's what they're then warning others about. It is not, um, a fellow believer says, I think that you have an abusive habit in your ministry. This is what it is, that's not persecution when this is going on. I think maybe there's a couple ways to test it. Tell me what you think of this. Is you can ask in that environment, is it one sided? Is the persecution one, the claims of persecution one sided such that if I do it to the leader, I'm persecuting them, but if they do it to me, they're just correcting me. 267 03:24:27.000 --> 03:24:28.000 Mhm. 268 03:24:27.000 --> 03:26:08.000 And if that's the case, if you think if the leader did to me the exact same thing I just did, would they be considered persecuting me? And if the answer is no, then you're probably not persecuting them either. And they're just using the persecution defense as a way of keeping, um, themselves from having any kind of accountability. Um, I was accused of persecuting, um, Brian Simmons because of the Passion translation that he made. I hired scholars to review it, and I shared their reviews. And he accused me of persecuting him in, uh, a now deleted Facebook post. Because he ranted and he deleted it, but that he didn't say, hey, I shouldn't have said that. He didn't take it back. He just deleted it because I think he didn't like the attention. But I take it this is probably what he's sharing with people behind closed doors, is that I'm persecuting him. If you falsely accuse somebody of persecuting you, you're accusing them of being an enemy of Christ. That's a pretty big claim. You know, when Jesus says to Saul before he, you know, gets saved, and he says, saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Me? And he says, who are you? And he goes, I'm the Lord Jesus. So when you're persecuting, yet Paul was only attacking Christians. That's persecution. It's an assault on Christ. It is a big claim to say someone's persecuting you as a Christian. The theological meaning of that is really deep, just like what you're saying. This is something that is, uh, in opposition to the gospel itself. So I think ask. Yeah, if the shoe was on the other foot and they were doing this to me instead of me to them, would they call it persecution still, or is it all of a sudden just godly correction? 269 03:26:08.000 --> 03:26:26.000 I think it's a great litmus test. And I don't know that people would have to think too hard because they've likely seen that person behave in a similar fashion, and they've seen it be called good. In fact, they might be doing it in retaliation to the persecution they perceive that they're receiving. 270 03:26:26.000 --> 03:27:22.000 Yeah, yeah. They could be saying, you know, hey, you're persecuting me, and therefore you're kicked out of the church. No one can talk to you again. And I'm like, well, one of these seems at least closer to persecution than the other one. You know, that it's the extremity of it. But, um, yeah, if they're just speaking truth and you're just asking for accountability, it is, say in Scripture, don't receive an accusation against an elder unless it's brought by two or three witnesses, which, I hasten to add, doesn't mean you Literally need two physical human beings who witness the thing. It just means you need confirmation. You need some sort of reason to think this is a true accusation. Um, but he says the ones who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all. That's the protocol for the ones who are actually sinning rebuke in the presence of all. That that leader is meant to be called out publicly, which is a daunting thing. But it's not persecution. Mhm. 271 03:27:22.000 --> 03:28:50.000 Yeah. And there, there are communities where a lot of people have left over time, which is such a good thing. Lots of disentangling, healing and all that to be done on the other side, but lots of people who have left who then come together and try to approach. Then when that's not received, it's like, okay, well now I'm going to speak out because we want to warn. We have a duty to warn. We want others who are vulnerable to not get exploited, to not have their vulnerabilities be exploited, but for them to be supported. And so we have to warn. And then it's classified as well. Now we're being persecuted, so we're going to double down. But again, something I have pointed out to people, and I'm so glad you said this is. What are you actually saying about these other believers? Like you're saying, like you said they're enemies of Christ. And like you're saying they're unbelievers. You're saying they, they are unsaved. That's a really big statement for you to be making. And they don't seem to. No one seems to realize that that is what's being said. I don't think it's being taken as seriously as it needs to be because at times there's even churches involved who are not, you know, and others get involved. They're like, well, it does seem like persecution. There's a newspaper article that went out, or there's a documentary being made, or there's this or that. It's like, but these are believers who are sounding the alarm for others in a hope and prayer that their children get out and that others children do not get in. 272 03:28:50.000 --> 03:30:46.000 Yeah, you can't know if it's persecution until you first ask if it's true. And m, that's an important thing to find out. Is it true? Is this an accurate accusation? Because true accusations is just exposing something. And that's something we're actually commanded to do in scripture. You know, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, rather expose them. Well, exposing Them involves something that would, would be by some called persecution, but is actually just shining a light on something that needs to have a light shine on it. Um, there's a number of things that converge here like the, the elitism of thinking that the leaders are more important than the people they've hurt. And so exposing them is bad because we don't care as much about these individuals they hurt. But the whole, as soon as the leader will wrap the whole movement around themselves. Like if you, if you do something that exposes me, then you're hurting everybody, you know, so you're attacking everyone. And this is the kind of self protection, it's almost like hostage, like the hostage situation. I will hold this whole church hostage. So if you guys deal with my sin now, it's going to take everybody and hurt them and you're attacking them all. But this is the same gaslighting kind of stuff that uh, an abusive parent says to their kid to keep them from reporting them for the extreme abuse they're experiencing. You're going to ruin our family. And they're wrapping themselves in the cloak of others. But those people actually need to be protected from them. That's the whole reason why they have to be exposed anyway. Lots of stuff going on there. But yeah, that um, accountability equals persecution. I don't think it works unless you combine it with elitism because it's this unspoken elitism. The leader is more important than you are, more reliable, more trustworthy, more godly. There's inherently better than you, which is why we don't have to sit and work through this issue. It's just persecution. 273 03:30:46.000 --> 03:30:47.000 Mhm. 274 03:30:47.000 --> 03:30:52.000 Yeah, that's my read on it anyways. 275 03:30:52.000 --> 03:33:49.000 I would agree. Oh yeah, it definitely goes with it. They go hand in hand. A lot of these. As I was putting it together, it just sort of naturally flowed because one leads to the next, leads to the next leads. Like they all, they all um, interconnect in one way or another oftentimes anyway throughout different groups. So and when I say groups, I'm not talking about necessarily like a cult group or a, I am thinking church, you know, a church environment where spiritual abuse is happening. So I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about specifically like some kind of underground group that's going on. Um, I meet as many people in mainstream who came out of a mainstream denominational church as I do who came out of a cult. That was a little more obvious to identify for those of us who are not in one. The next one is covenantal commitment. So this is talking about when someone joins a church or they join again, whether it's. It's culty or it's not, um, using the word covenant can be totally fine and great. It means agreement. I mean, if you just kind of Google it, like, what's the definition of covenant? It means agreement. And so to be making an agreement, if I'm becoming a member of a church and to take that seriously, to know how the church operates, um, how I'm going to engage with the church, that's all well and good. There's a specific passage for this. It's one that I wanted to just share, because where it goes awry, and it should not. It need not do this. This need not happen. Members believe that to leave, they would be breaking a covenant with God. And this is it. Sometimes, I mean, when this happens, it's not because they're just crazy and they're making it up. It's because it's been set up this way. Way. So they've signed this covenant. We see covenant in scripture. Covenant's a big deal. We have our covenant with the Lord. We have, uh, God's covenant with Israel. We have. We know. We see that example. We see a marriage covenant. You know, we know how, how serious that is, the sanctity of marriage. And so, okay, I signed this agreement. It said covenant at the top. I'm told then, well, if I break this, then I'm breaking a covenant with the Lord and I'm turning my back on God. I'm breaking this commitment. And so that can keep people feeling trapped and confused, including confusion over God's character, because who is this God who would keep them in an abusive environment? Um, this is a really toxic, unhealthy, abusive, spiritual environment. And they feel like, well, I've made this agreement. I can't actually leave. And so, again, it breeds this fear too, of, well, I'm turning my back on God if I go. So, again, this. This should not be the case. Using the covenant language, I would not take any issue with. I don't think there's a concern there. Feel free to disagree, Mike, if you want to add something. But I think, again, it's, as we're seeing throughout what's being done with it that's the problem. 276 03:33:49.000 --> 03:37:27.000 Yeah, I. I think you're right. I agree that the idea of, like, even signing a membership or covenant, a membership covenant with your church is not inherently problematic. It's. It's the nature of what. How they view that. And when they view it as, um, like you said, loyalty and commitment to this local group is equivalent to your loyalty and commitment to God and what God's doing. And I've talked to people who say that they, um, that they were part of a group. Even just a couple days ago I was talking to someone, it's part of a group who, um, in Florida who will say, you know, you're just, you're not, you're not, you're rebelling against the work of God. You've turned your back on your commitment and on the thing God is doing because it's viewed as. Their church is viewed as special. Yeah, we don't deny other churches are real, but we're the special church. We're a, uh, very unique and special. And your commitment to us is almost like a marriage to a local fellowship. And that is. There's nothing in scripture that suggests this. We actually see people move around a lot. In the Bible we see people traveling. Paul writes, you know, Priscilla and Aquila are over here. Then all of a sudden they're over there. It's like Ephesus. They're in Corinth. Paul himself is bouncing around. Sylvanus is moving around, Timothy's moving around. We see a lot of people moving around. Um, and it's never seen as a problem. This is about power and control that the leadership wants to have over people's lives and so they want to limit their movement. What's interesting is they always let people move into these churches. They just don't want them moving out. Right. You're welcome Door. Oh yeah. You can leave your old church and join us because we're special, but you can't leave us because we're special. It's like a one sided thing. At least that's my experience. It's always okay to abandon some other fellowship and join us. No moral quandary there at all. But leaving our group, you've turned your back on God. The phrase I've heard is you've put your hand to the plow and turn back. You're unfit for, for the kingdom of God. And you're like, dude, they just went to a different fellowship. Like this is not something you're not allowed to do. I don't want to have people church hopping where they have no sense of commitment. To a local church there should be a sense of commitment, but there is not this covenantal obligation to never leave. I'm a member at my church and I have a covenant membership. Covenant we sign. But it says things like I'm obligated to tell the leaders if I'm leaving not to get permission. I mean, they may make a judgment call on whether they think I should leave or not based on maybe. I mean, I'm leaving because I'm cheating on my wife and I'm going to go to some other church that's okay with it or something. Um, down the street. There's one I could go to, I'm sure. But um, but they would make a judgment call and they would, they'd be like, hey, that was not appropriate. But they're not going to. They would deal with my sin issue. They wouldn't think that leaving itself is a sin. When people leave and we send them off with blessings, when they leave, we pray for them. Where are you guys going? Oh, we're moving. I got a better. I got a good job offer in Ohio. I'm leaving California. Hey, let's, let's pray for you. Sunday night service, we have a little family service thing. We all pray for them, send them out with blessings, tell them how much we're going to miss them. That's it. There's no violation that's happened there. Mhm. And there's nothing in scripture that suggests otherwise. We see people move around a lot. Yeah. Anybody who feels that way, next time you read Acts or the letters, notice the same names appearing in different churches because they move around. It's allowed. 277 03:37:27.000 --> 03:37:33.000 M. Yeah. Informing versus seeking permission. 278 03:37:33.000 --> 03:37:34.000 Right. 279 03:37:33.000 --> 03:37:49.000 And you're right, they're not, um. That's kind of funny to think about. I have never, I've never heard of someone who was asked before signing a covenantal agreement with the church if they had an existing one or a pre existing one with a different church. Yes. I don't think that's a thing. 280 03:37:49.000 --> 03:37:54.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's these unequal scales. This is the elitism. 281 03:37:54.000 --> 03:37:55.000 Mhm. 282 03:37:54.000 --> 03:38:16.000 We're special. We're special. I can speak against you. You can't speak against me because I'm the leader. You can leave other churches, but you can't leave our church because we're special. I've been amazed at how much what I will just call elitism is baked into a lot of the unhealthy things that I've seen in, uh, in ministries that are not a good place for people to be. 283 03:38:16.000 --> 03:38:26.000 Mhm. Absolutely. Next one. Always with the Matthew 18. This one, just incessant. 284 03:38:26.000 --> 03:38:28.000 It will never stop. 285 03:38:28.000 --> 03:41:13.000 It's gotta be the most used to abuse. So the. Here's what it looks like, here's what's said, here's what I hear, here's what I'VE seen, here's what I've experienced. You have to follow Matthew 18 or your claim is going to be dismissed. You sinned by not following the steps of Matthew 18, and that typically trumps any sin the other person committed, or at minimum, it drastically lessens it. So no matter what, even to the degree of child sexual abuse, you are supposed to follow this. And if not, well, we're not looking at your sin. This is, you now have a problem. So you have a plank in your eye. You got to go handle that. And so, and yes, as I know you know, uh, it is believed that someone who is abused must first go to their abuser alone. So the result of this is a huge mess. Some don't seek help or repentance and amends because they can't face their abuser on their own. Of course they can't, nor should they. They either stay in the environment. They turn further and further inward as they feel unseen, unloved, worthless, confused. They often blame themselves, believing that they're least, the least of God's children. Many are silenced when they do try to bring forward a concern or an abuse because they did not follow Matthew 18 first. And so that can then turn them away from the church or push them further into isolation or set them up to have to go talk to someone when they are totally unsafe to do so. It is unsafe to do so because that abuser is unsafe. Tragically, others do again go to that abuser, um, in an attempt to follow Matthew 18, and they are abused again in some way, shape or form. And then also people commit crimes and they get away with it because it's not reported. That's all kinds of messy fallout to this one. So I'll read the passage for you. Matthew 18:15 through 20. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, There I am among them. Now that second half about loosing and binding isn't typically included. I like to include that part because I think it's helpful with a bit more additional context. Even though, you know, we could back up and of course look at Matthew in, in a whole. But that second part I never actually hear with it. 286 03:41:13.000 --> 03:41:14.000 Right. 287 03:41:13.000 --> 03:41:24.000 Um, I do hear it broken out separately though, about losing and binding, but then I hear it in regards to forgiveness. So I would separate it out and connected there. 288 03:41:24.000 --> 03:50:40.000 Right. Yeah. This is more about, um, church discipline. Yeah. So you've got um, a procedure here. But the if in verse 15 is important. You know, does this apply to every scenario where you're sinned against or, uh, where sin is involved? He says if your brother sins against you, go and tell him, uh, his fault between you and him alone. This is a great general rule. Jesus often gives general rules. To say there are zero potential exceptions to the rules would contradict Jesus himself. He says not to call people a fool. And then later on he tells the uh, Pharisees that they're fools. The exact same word in Greek for fool. Is he contradicting himself or is he like. No, he means like, don't. It's okay to like use your brain when you listen to Jesus and go, yeah, as general rule, don't be calling people names. God cares about that. But what if the person's legitimately a fool and they're a dangerous fool who's hurting other people? Is it okay for to publicly call them a fool? Yeah, well, that's the time. It's okay. You can use our adult brains and make adult decisions and stuff. So here, if your brother sins against you, you, uh, tell him your fault between you and him alone is not talking about, like, if your father molests you, go and tell him privately alone. Between the two. No, go call the police. Don't even be in his presence. That's a dangerous environment that's going to subject you to potential harms. Um, there's a common sense that we do have to apply to these things. And I know that that's going to be offensive to some people. But I think if you look at scripture that, ah, you see this. So when Paul the apostle rebukes Peter in front of everybody, he does not privately tell Peter about his sin. He says in Galatians, you know, I saw that his conduct was not in accordance with the gospel of grace. That's a really big thing. It's a big sin issue actually. And he rebukes him to his face in Front of everybody. And he goes, if you a, uh, Jew, you know, live as a Gentile, why do you command the Jews? And he has this whole thing that was a very public, very open rebuke with no Matthew 18 steps. He did not privately go to Peter at all. He publicly told everybody and embarrassed Peter. And it was because Peter was publicly harming a group of people. And he's a leader and he needed to be held accountable for the sake of the individuals. Matthew 18 did not apply there. Why? Because it was not meant for that kind of situation. Uh, when I was in, um, youth ministry, I was a youth, uh, pastor, and I just recently been ordained as youth pastor. Went on my first. Was, uh, it winter camp or summer camp? I don't remember now. It was a number of years ago, and there was a girl who came up and told us that her stepfather had been molesting her on a regular basis. And, uh, without going into a bunch of details, we, um. It's so long ago that I feel like I can talk about it now. I didn't talk about it for long years and years because I wanted to protect her from that. I know I can talk about it now, though. Um, but we made sure that that man was in handcuffs before the day went out that she was told it would never happen again. There was none of this. Well, let's. After camp, how about, you know, you go privately and tell him, and then I'll go with you if that doesn't work, and then I'll. No way. Or like you have a violent husband who's been escalating in his violence. There's something in domestic violence counseling that we call separation violence. It's because the likelihood of a man, or woman for that matter, actually, uh, committing murder or doing something more extreme than they've ever done before. It's when they fear they're going to lose the relationship. So oftentimes in a DV relationship, a woman cannot do this, right? She can't go. I'll start fresh with M. Matthew 18. What she has to do is secretly pack a bag, secretly make plans, secretly save money, and then flee suddenly with no warning because it's incredibly dangerous. Separation violence is a real thing. The guy thinks I can't control her anymore. Well, if she's not going to be, he has what we determine as enmeshment. He sees her identity as wrapped up in his identity, and he'd rather see her dead than with someone else or just not part of his life. It's that level of demonic control that he's got in her life. Um, she has to, at that point, flee private. Like, Matthew 18 cannot apply there. And this is for the same reason that Jesus can call the Pharisees fools and also say, don't call people fools. Because there's a certain level of. Can you consider other elements, other factors? Also, when you've got a, uh, leader, there's different dynamics that are there. So if a leader publicly berates a congregant in front of the whole church to say, well, then you have to privately go to him. You can't publicly confront him. And you're like, well, this is already public. To insist that it remain private seems unhealthy and unhelpful and allows him to privately be like, yeah, well, I'm sorry about that, but have no accountability before the congregation, not fix the problem, that sort of thing. There's a bunch of other things to consider here. I think it'd be interesting to do a study of the Bible where you read through the text of scripture and you ask yourself if Matthew 18 is always followed in every circumstance. You know, um, I don't think it is, but I want to be careful. I don't recklessly grab, like, David and Goliath and go, well, did David pull Goliath aside and privately tell him? I mean, I don't know if there's really enough apparent parallel there to use. But, um, we can give an example with, um, uh, let's see. Paul found out that there were Jews plotting to kill him in the Book of Acts, and he appealed to Caesar. Why didn't he go to them alone and tell them their sin? Hey, guys, you're sinning against me. This is inappropriate. He just went straight to the highest, uh, court in the land and appealed to Caesar. That's an interesting thing that happened there. It is okay to say that there are such things as power dynamics. If you have somebody who's bullying and oppressing you or being violent towards you, or let me give you a more specific example, a pastor who. This is a story that really has happened numerous times in a particular church. Um, probably going to be doing a video about in the future. Um, when this pastor finds out that someone's got a real beef with them, with him, he will gather together and say, well, you have to do Matthew 18. So then they'll. They'll schedule a meeting. He'll come into that meeting with several other staff members. On the way into the meeting, he tells the staff members the dirty laundry. Remember the confession stuff, the details of that person's life. He says Satan's really got a foothold in their life. They really got some problems and they're coming against me and you guys. I'm scared for their soul. We've got to do an intervention here. We've got to confront them. And so when they think what they're doing is coming to confront the leader to say, you know, you've been really bullying and mistreating me and you've been demanding so much of me and I'm giving everything I've got to you. But then you're suspicious and you're. And you're asking, you're talking about me behind my back and you're like texting people to ask what I've said about you. I haven't said anything about you. I've. I look up to you. And they're finally going to confront, like, this weird, aggressive behavior. Instead what happens is they get in the room and everybody comes at him super hard, super hard. And then before they know it, they're crying and they're repenting of all their sins and they don't even know what's going on. Right? They're just so gaslit beyond anything reasonable. They're just like, oh, yeah, I'm so sorry. And they're apologizing to this person who's been abusing them. And then they leave. And either they walk now broken and submitted to this authoritarian person, or they walk out. And now there's a story that could be told. We tried to confront them in their sins and they just refused us. Pray for them, guys. Satan's really got a hold of them. Probably better if you give them some space. We should deliver them over to Satan for now. And what you've done is, if you know ahead of time going into that meeting, that that's the kind of pattern of behavior that happens here. You don't have to go to that meeting. Like, this is. Skip right to the bottom of Matthew 18 or that section, those verses, and be like, yeah, um, I'm going to tell it to the church because this is a pattern of behavior. I'm not going to be naive about it. I'm just going to tell it to the church. And I think in some cases telling it to the church means, uh, going very big in public, like, like actually telling it to, like, everybody. Um, I think that sometimes that's exactly what it means. Because sometimes abusive ministries have such a stranglehold on the church that the only way to tell it to the church is to just go public because, you know, it will eventually leak in. It's not something you do casually, but. But I think it's something that can be done properly. 289 03:50:40.000 --> 03:50:55.000 Right, Absolutely. And there's times where I have conversations with people where they want to go to the meeting. There's something to that for them. They want to go. And then I at least say, don't go alone. Definitely don't do that. 290 03:50:55.000 --> 03:50:56.000 Yeah. 291 03:50:56.000 --> 03:52:20.000 So, yeah, uh, even if someone isn't going to sail a whole lot, I mean, at least have someone else there. I mean, there was. There was one time I was in a virtual meeting. This is before B. Emboldened or at the very start of it. And I was in a virtual meeting. And the, um, chair of the board at that time, she just reached over and was like, I'm going to close the laptop screen. Because this is just not a healthy situation for anyone involved right now. And it's just. It's good to have someone else there. Um, in case you Freeze. In case you. Whatever happens, um, those threat reflex responses, the Lord designed us with them. Fight, flight, freeze. I mean, there are things that we can do to get ourselves out of danger. They can also be maladaptive at times, or we can again freeze and just not be able to respond. Or like you said, get totally table turned. Everything's flipped around, and then you're crying and you're repenting, like you said. And to have somebody else there to help say, okay, here's what really happened, and to be able to be a witness to it. Um, so that's. That's my minimum, um, my minimum recommendation for people. If you, if you are feeling like you need to go and you're going to go again. I pre. Don't. But if you're going to. Please, at minimum. Yeah. Have someone be with you. Don't. Don't let people get you in a room alone. 292 03:52:20.000 --> 03:54:09.000 I've had leaders who. I could do that with, a pastor who I've had in my past, who I could have. I could have pulled them aside and said, hey, Pastor, I felt hurt when this happened. And they would have listened and it would have been fine. They wouldn't have abused, you know, weird power dynamics like that. It would have been fine. I'm not saying you don't do that. You do that. But there's times where you go, this is not one of those times. You know, um, this guy. Imagine if a guy physically beat you up and then you're like, I have to go to him privately. You're like, you're just going to get beat up again. You Know, this is very possible. Um, no, maybe you should just call the police. Uh, maybe you should just skip to where there's a level of accountability there because of this person's. The kind of behavior that they have. So I think we have to use wisdom. Matthew 18 is also not about. It's about personal, individual sin. Hey, that person sinned against me. But when that sin involves the abuse of an office, that can be a little bit different because that. So if me as like a pastor at a church, I represent the church, and I'm using my authority in the church in order to harm somebody, there can be a more public nature of the confrontation because it's already about the organization, not just about me as an individual. So it depends on the nature of the sin. I think we should be open to handling these things with wisdom and using our brains. The agenda, of course, is to gain your brother is to fix the problem, is to be a solution. What Matthew 18 doesn't talk about is when this person is a danger to others. It's, uh, not just about fixing a relational problem between the two of us, which is what Matthew 18 is about. But he's a danger to other people, actually harmful to other people. And in this point, if someone's harmful to others, then you should take extra steps, extra steps to make sure that there's protections. Uh, what do you think of that? 293 03:54:09.000 --> 03:54:17.000 Uh, I think, uh. I think I got distracted by my cat biting my toe, to be completely honest. 294 03:54:17.000 --> 03:54:20.000 Um, we've been talking for way too long anyway, so. 295 03:54:20.000 --> 03:55:25.000 Yeah, because he wants attention. Oh. But one other comment I had on this one before we do move on, is that I have never heard this. I mean, not never. I'll take it back. Not never. Very rarely do I hear this passage applied all the way through to its finish, like, where the abuser is actually removed. Instead, again, it's used to weaponize against a victim and to continue to victimize them. I don't really hear when people bring up Matthew 18 in this context. I mean, we're talking about spiritual abuse. You know, we're not talking about proper application as far as our examples here. Yeah, but it. That never happens. It's not. Okay. Yeah. You know, if you came to me, group came to me. Okay. Many came to me. All right. Yeah, we're going to follow this all the way through, and. And I'm going to step down and just incredibly rare to actually hear that. So I know you brought it up with other examples we've used, but it's like, we don't Hear it all the way. We just hear the part that they like. 296 03:55:25.000 --> 03:56:22.000 Yeah, yeah. I'm starting to think of like principles to help people as they're working through Matthew 18 and like trying to figure out how it applies their scenario because they want to follow Scripture and they're like, well, I'm reading it, it says, go between me and him alone. And I think that if you look at Matthew 18, keep in mind that the agenda here is restoration. Um, if me confronting them is part of restoration, uh, then I want to do it that way. But if it's part of enablement of further abuses, then then I don't want to do it that way. And it takes the wisdom to sometimes go, oh yeah, I can tell what it is because the nature of their, of their sin is already requiring me to bring somebody else into it. Yeah, uh, we all understand this. If they're violent, if they're violent, physically violent, but if they're also using power and control in a manipulative fashion on an ongoing way, then it's also a time to bring in somebody else. Because the power dynamic, there is a different kind of oppression that you just can't be alone with them. 297 03:56:22.000 --> 03:57:33.000 Mhm. Right. And there is a power dynamic. I think that would be, that'd be a real miss to leave that out. So power dynamics do happen, you know. And so if someone's a spiritual leader and that's where the. I think without a power dynamic, I don't know that spiritual abuse would, would be super effective because someone wouldn't have the influence to spiritually abuse someone else. It's that perception of this person is walking with the Lord. They've been doing it longer, they're, they're more knowledgeable or they're more spiritually mature. They're more. Whatever it is. And it's. Oh, they hold this office like you mentioned. Maybe, maybe they don't. It can be unofficial. It's not necessarily like an official office within the church. But there is this perception of this person knows something I don't, or they are in this position that I don't have. There's this power, there's this influence, there's this authority that they have. And again, sometimes it is attached to an office and sometimes it's just perceived, you know, like a mentor, for example, that could just be perceived. But if we don't have that at least perception, then I don't think we're going to get the same impact. 298 03:57:33.000 --> 03:57:34.000 Yeah. 299 03:57:34.000 --> 03:57:35.000 That we have spiritual abuse. 300 03:57:35.000 --> 03:58:19.000 There's, there's something good about being courageous and going and saying I'm going to, I'm going to talk to them. And um, but there's also, I'm just, I just want people to have wisdom, to know that doesn't mean that's all you can ever do. There's times where you say, wait, look at the scenario, look at the dynamics here. I should bring in somebody else. Let's say that the, the person who was, who was hurt was like a four year old and the one who hurt him was like this 30 year old guy. And you're like, you don't have to go to him alone. Crazy. We recognize that there's dynamics that, that naturally lend towards. There needs to be a slightly different procedure here. But um, yeah, and obviously like a sex, a sex abuse victim does not need to, if they commit a crime against somebody, you call the police. That's what they're there for. Let's go back to the Romans passage. 301 03:58:19.000 --> 03:59:33.000 Yeah, well, I think your other example is great though too. Well, I know that there's this pattern of behavior. I've probably experienced it myself. If I go to this meeting, in fact someone's story comes to mind. This is exactly what happened. It was over the course of months, just meeting after meeting and the same thing happened every single time. The table turning, the lack of repentance, the blaming, the. It was just like. And then they wanted another meeting. And there was a point of just like, I'm, um, just not going to have any more meetings. I mean this is just foolish. We're not getting anywhere. I'm getting more chewed up and spit out than I had been before. Again, this would be foolish of me to continue. Unless something changes, we're just going to have to call it for now. And then this is also my approach. The door remains open. If there, if something does change there, there could be again, depending on what we're talking about, there may be the opportunity for a conversation down the road. I have people in my life where if they reached out, I mean I've got siblings, right, who I said are still in the cult. There has been abuses that have happened with some of them. If, if they reached out and they said, oh my gosh, I didn't know. And now I get it. Yeah, let's have a conversation, please. I mean, what a gift to be able to have one. 302 03:59:33.000 --> 04:00:23.000 Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I think, I think that's a really wonderful thing to keep that your heart open to. That is a really healthy thing for you to do as well. Um, the other thing I'll add with Matthew 18 is if the thing that the guy did to me is the same thing he's done to 8, 10, 15, 20 other people and he's been confronted. Um, I can just tell people, you don't have to continue. It's a repeated pattern of behavior. You know what I mean? When it's repeated patterns of behavior, you can more quickly escalate things because you've already been down this road, this has already been done. Um, and obviously public teachings can be confronted publicly. Those don't need private, private confrontations. Uh, yeah, I'm sure there's a lot more that can be said about that, but uh, but we should probably move on to the next one. Unless you had something more on Matthew. 303 04:00:23.000 --> 04:00:32.000 No, I think that's great. Again, it's just that one gets tiring. It's important though. But it's just, I just hear it over and over and over and over again. 304 04:00:32.000 --> 04:00:33.000 Yeah. 305 04:00:33.000 --> 04:00:50.000 So it is not if, if you did not follow Matthew 18 and you have reasons for not following Matthew 18, even if you didn't, you're, you're not worse, you're not the, the worst of the two. And the other's sin is somehow now excused and we don't have to talk about it. 306 04:00:50.000 --> 04:01:19.000 That's a really good point. It doesn't, it doesn't uh, excuse what someone's done if someone else failed to do Matthew 18. Um, but what I would suggest is in a lot of cases with uh, certain kinds of situations, you're not failing to do Matthew 18, you're just applying it wrong to think that it's required of you in that scenario. Seek restoration. But don't seek to just re victimize yourself or seek to re victimize others and be foolish about it. 307 04:01:19.000 --> 04:03:29.000 Mhm. So the last one is the topic of forgiveness. And this, I mean this could be a whole conversation on its own. But what I'm running into and most commonly seeing and want to touch on is if a survivor does not quickly forgive the abuser, then they are now the sinner who's in the spotlight. And this overshadows the abuse that was done to them. So it more or less lets the abuser kind of slink away into the background. So that's one point. The second point is unforgiveness is now the reason a survivor is struggling. They're suffering, they're hurting, they're confus if they just forgive and they'd be freed from their suffering. So this is used like really quickly someone gets out of the abusive situation and Then it's, well, you just have to forgive. Like the first thing that's being told to them, they don't even know what on earth happened to them yet. And, and that's, that's how I would respond to it is we have to know what on earth even happened before we could be talking about who you're forgiving for what, because you're, you're so tangled up. Like you, we don't even have our feet under us yet to even have that conversation. And then for some, forgiveness requires reconciliation of the relationship, which, um, may have never been safe to begin with. So to say that they have to go back into that, of course, is incredibly dangerous and problematic. So two main verses that I hear used here, Matthew 18, 21, 22. So just a different place in Matthew 18. So Matthew 18, 21, 22. Then Peter came up and said to him, uh, lord, how often will my brother sin against me? And I forgive him as many as seven times. Jesus said to him, I do not say to you seven times, but 77 times. I never hear this. Paired with Luke 17, 3, 4, which says, Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in the day and turns to you seven times saying, I repent, you must forgive him. So again, I don't hear that one ever. Paired with Luke, which I find interesting, where the repentance piece is included in Luke, it's not in Matthew. Mhm. So that's the first one. 308 04:03:29.000 --> 04:03:30.000 Right. 309 04:03:30.000 --> 04:03:31.000 That gets used. 310 04:03:31.000 --> 04:09:59.000 Good, good reason to make sure you include more than one passage that talks about a topic to get a full teaching on it. What's interesting is, um, in Matthew 18 early on in verse 17 that we read earlier, if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. Uh, this is like someone who won't listen. He doesn't just say, I repent, but the repentance seems to be like there's some reason to think there's some kind of genuineness in it. And he refuses to listen to them. You tell it to the church. There's actual consequences. So the thing about the forgiveness, when we misuse forgiveness, um, we're often told to forgive people without any sort of differentiation between forgiveness and restoration, um, between. Or another way I like to put it, and I know people struggle with this a little bit, I hope I can put it in a way that makes sense, is the genuine offer of heartfelt forgiveness versus the reception of that forgiveness. And I think of it like this. So Ephesians 4. 32, it says, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you. And I had an old teacher, uh, who used to say, we forgive people the way Jesus forgave us. Jesus forgave us, starting with forgiveness in his heart, already being prepared. So he goes on the cross, he dies for our sin, he takes our sin, and he's on the cross, metaphorically, with his arms open, welcoming us. But there is a condition. It's a, uh, genuineness in our repentance. It's a genuineness in our confession, yielding to him, and then he receives us. But if we don't repent, if we're not genuine in our, like, oh, uh, Lord, I'm sorry. Then we do not receive that forgiveness. It's only an offer in his heart. And so I look at it this way. I say, look, yeah, those who've sinned against me, I want to get my heart. This is a work of God in my life, clear enough and gracious enough that I'm genuinely offering forgiveness, but not so foolish as to pretend that it has been accomplished merely because I've offered it. So as soon as we say things, we're a little clumsy with words. We're like, I've already forgiven them. You might say, for my part, forgiveness is prepared, or something like that. But there actually are consequences for my sins. If I don't turn to Christ, Uh, I don't remain forgiven, even though he has given that true offer. So I want to have my position of my heart like that. That person who sinned against me, they haven't repented. Um, we don't have forgiveness between us, but man, on my end, it is ready. That's a healthy heart. But it's manipulative and not Christlike to act like I'm supposed to fully forgive and embrace them while they continue doing the same things that. I know this is tricky, but, uh, I think that's the best way I can put together what Scripture says about this and the example that Jesus gives. So. So that you could say in Matthew 18:17, like, if he doesn't listen to you, tell it to the church. This idea of your brother sins against you and repent seven times a day. Yeah, this is meant to be a bit of an exaggeration. It's meant to be hyperbole. But it's meant to simply say, there's no limit to the offer of forgiveness in my heart. But if I was to stab you in the shoulder with a fork, and I go, I repent, and you go, well, I forgive you, Mike, and I stab you again. I repent. And I do that seven times a day. It's okay to be like, you're probably not really repenting, are you? I mean, I want to have that much forgiveness in my heart. But I'm not silly about what you're doing. If it's the same thing over and over again, that kind of thing, you wonder if it's genuine. We see this with, like, also an example of incredible forgiveness, but not without a testing phase. Uh, in the book of Genesis. So we see, um, uh, Jacob with his brothers. And he tests them. So they sell him into slavery. And he rises up to the set, to the right hand of Egypt. I said Jacob. I meant Joseph. Um, and Joseph's there, and he sees his brothers later, they're in need, and they show up and they don't know it's him. And he tests them. He puts his little brother into a situation where he's now in trouble. And Reuben offers to take his place. And so he sees the other son of the same mother that they don't seem to respect, right? That one who is kind of like Joseph. Reuben's willing to offer his life in exchange. And this proves to him, like, to Joseph, like, they've actually changed. They really do have genuine regret over what they did to me because they don't know what I'm doing or all this stuff. And this was, like, a profound moment for him. And he breaks down and he's like, brothers, it's me. And he still is careful about where he puts them. He's still, like, aware of potential dangers, and he's still cautious. But there is, uh, now a bridge. And forgiveness is. That is very real about life. Let's say you had an abusive father in your life who later repented, and you think, I've been ready to forgive you for years, and now you appear to be repenting. But I'm not going to leave my daughter at your house unattended. Okay? I don't know. I'm not being judgmental and mean. I'm being wise, okay? I don't know. I'm not going to put myself in a position where I don't have any control and don't have, uh, an escape plan, you know, in case. So you might have very cautious kind of involvement that goes on there. I think that that. That can be great wisdom. And it seems to be modeled with Joseph and the requirement of a gen. Like, I'm sorry, a genuine one, a real one. That's, um, not Just manipulation techniques that seems to be there with God and us. And he says, forgive as Christ, as God in Christ forgave you. Well, forgive like that. So these things are important. Um, I know of. I could actually share more examples. I can't. There's some that are too close to home for me to talk about. So, um, I've seen this before as well, where the person is been victimized. They open up about it and they're worried that the leadership will too quickly let go of this thing and it won't really get resolved. And that's interpreted as you have an unforgiving heart. And it's like, no, they have the fear that they're not going to be protected from the repetition of the same sort of things. That's the thing they're afraid of. And that's probably something they should be afraid of, to be honest. So we got to walk in wisdom there. Yeah. Do you have anything you'd add to that or change on that? 311 04:09:59.000 --> 04:14:24.000 No, I don't think there's anything that I would change. I think forgiveness overall, there is a. There's a timeline to it. And I'm not saying that as in there's some test set timeline of what it's going to look, look like. But again, this quickness and also this. I would say it's at least implied this, um, belief that's being shared of if you forgive basically, like, you're gonna be good. Like, you're not gonna, you're not gonna be grieved anymore, you're not gonna feel the confusion, you're not gonna feel that sense of wronged, you're going to be fine. Like it's going to kind of shortcut the healing process in some way. And that's just untrue. Instead, what. At least what I've. I'm going to speak from personal experience for a second here. And personal experience is not everything. I'm not saying that. Um, but I'm going to use it as an example as I have continued to seek the Lord and get to know him through his word more. And I've continued to heal and seek that through professional counseling, wise counsel, friends, you know, just challenging myself to have strong Christian community and all these things that were big and scary and hard. I've. I've come to a place of I, Lord, you're the perfect judge. And, uh, I'm glad that I don't ultimately have to make this decision. I mean, if I'm to think about my own father, he's a bad guy. He had A lot of really bad stuff. I'm glad that I'm not the one who has to make the decision about what eternity looks like for him. I would much rather the Lord do that. I am happy, I am relieved to hand that over to him. I don't have a sense of vengeance. I don't have that bitterness. I mean, that's our, uh, line, right? We're not to become vengeful or not to become bitter. I still recognize what he did was wrong. I can still reflect on some of those memories and feel the very real pain of some of what he did and how wrong it was. And I hear that in the stories of others. And that matters to me. It impacts me that my dad hurt other people. And, uh, at the same time, there's this ability to hand that outcome over to the Lord. Now that is not going to. In some cases, again, you can call the cops. You get. There's. There's stuff that can be done for some degree at least, of justice here on earth. Um, my dad's dead. I mean, it's done. And so there's. There's nothing for me to do in that regard. And it's more of a place, though, that I would say in my relationship with God and with Christian community, I've kind of arrived here. It wasn't something that could have been shoved down my throat. It wasn't something that could have been hastened, because, like you already mentioned, Mike, it wouldn't have been genuine. So would I say that I've forgiven him? I think I've handed it over to the Lord. And for me, it's kind of said and done. I don't. I don't feel animosity. I don't feel an anger towards him. I don't. I am grieved and I am disgusted by things, and I am, uh, just the wickedness, the evil of it. But again, I'm not bitter and I'm not vengeful. And I'd be honest if I was, I don't mind admitting areas of growth that I have. So, uh, I guess I'm curious what you would say to that. But it's not this. Okay, yes, I. I had to rush to forgive him, and I've forgiven him. If he was still alive, would I still be in relationship? Even for those who would agree, no. You don't have to be in a reconciled relationship, especially if there's not repentance. That's not possible. Um, even someone who would agree with that. I've heard that push of, well, forgive quickly and then I hear the forgiving again and again and again because we're just. We're not there yet to even understand what I'm forgiving someone for. And along the way, I've had to circle back again, like I've mentioned at the beginning of our time. I've learned more about my dad along the way, and I've had to step back and process this over again. 312 04:14:24.000 --> 04:15:01.000 Let me ask you one question. Let's, um, suppose you found out for sure that before your dad died, he had, like, fully and truly repented. And it was like, I can't believe I did all this stuff. Maybe he wrote it in a letter, was like, I'm sorry to you. I'm sorry to God. I'm sorry to anybody who I influenced. I messed up my family. Like, really genuine, like, real. If he had done that, would you feel, praise God, I'm so glad he did. Or would you be like, kind of wish you hadn't, you know, I want you to face judgment for that. 313 04:15:01.000 --> 04:15:04.000 No, that would be the best thing. 314 04:15:04.000 --> 04:17:33.000 That'd be the best thing. Then your heart's where it needs to be. That's the offer of forgiveness. But you also want genuineness. And that's what God demands of us, too. And there's Naomi. God wants us to have comfort in his future wrath. I know that's a weird thing for people to hear, especially in very civilized countries, um, where they've had a lot of civilized experiences. But there's a comfort. This is where he says, do, um, not repay. I will repay. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. Uh, it really is this thing of, I will withhold any wrath, any coming at you that I might have, like, for vengeance sake, because I know the one who brings real vengeance is coming. In fact, when I add one more layer to that, I go, and I hope you come to Christ. I hope you truly repent and are forgiven. I would rather. But if you are outside of Christ, God's going to deal with you. And I don't have to carry this, because God's got it. And I think we receive comfort both from the forgiveness there is in Christ. And I think we receive comfort from the knowledge of God's wrath. And you commit it to him. And I don't think that's unbiblical or wrong to do so. And the martyrs in Revelation are crying, how long, Lord? How long, oh, Lord, till you bring vengeance? Now, those same martyrs died preaching Jesus to the people who killed them. They'd rather those people get saved. But seeing they persist in Those sins, they also take a sense of comfort in the fact that God will deal with them. I think that's the complexity that I see. And it sounds like you're in a healthy place when you describe it and all that stuff. And you go, that, uh, would be the best thing ever. Now you think it probably didn't happen to your knowledge. Okay. And that's the worst thing. M. But the fact that your heart could be there and go, that would be ideal. Now, even if he really had repented and he was still alive, you would still have to be cautious and thoughtful about what involvement and how close. And do you even get in the same room? Do you talk on the phone without your husband right there? Those are all good questions to ask, um, and to be careful with. So I think forgiveness, at least I see it with that kind of complexity. And it's partly interacting with people who have had real situations, not little fairy tale stories, but real life situations where you go, we need some nuance here. But also Scripture itself seems to present that kind of nuance. So I'm kind of grateful for it. It's complicated, but the Bible's kind of complicated about it too. 315 04:17:33.000 --> 04:18:09.000 Mhm. Um, I think that's Revelation 6, if I'm remembering right. Um, I always get, I always want to say five and then like, no, it might be six, five. I'm not sure, but I actually reference that one a lot. I tell that story a lot to people because I love how then the lamb gives them white robes and says to wait a little longer. They're not told, why haven't you forgiven yet? Why haven't you let it? Why haven't you, you know, they're not getting yelled at like, okay, what's the matter with you? Like, no, the Lord's got it. Like, this is. We can trust him in that. We trust him in everything, but we can trust him in that. 316 04:18:09.000 --> 04:18:17.000 Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a weird thing to say, but I think the wrath of God is meant to be comforting. I really do. 317 04:18:17.000 --> 04:18:19.000 Mhm. 318 04:18:19.000 --> 04:18:42.000 And it's always just, it's always right. Mine's not the wrath, uh, of man. The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God, James says. And that's true. But God's anger does produce righteousness. He does everything perfectly. So he'll deal with it. And I can go, oh, cool, okay, it's covered either way. It's covered. So yeah. 319 04:18:42.000 --> 04:18:47.000 I think that can be it. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's a good place to end it. 320 04:18:47.000 --> 04:20:42.000 Yeah. Um, I'll just say, you know, for people who want to contact your ministry, maybe reach out and, um, look for some, uh, some support, maybe some mentoring to go through, get through some recovery of different things they've been through, then they can go to bemboldens.com and that's your website. You got access there. And the testimonies I've heard from the stuff you've done have been good. And that's because I'm, like, kind of hesitant. You know, you don't really know for sure who you're connecting people to all the time. So I've been kind of slow to make this connection, but I think it's good. And if it's battle, someone tell me, no, I'm just kidding. I think we're good. And, um, I appreciate that sort of direction where when I've looked at your stuff or I know TC's been involved in the things you guys do as well, and the kind of healthy perspective, perspective that she has or that you have on processing this stuff where it's done with compassion, but, uh, with a commitment to Christ and scripture and stuff like that, that's an amazing thing. People need that. So hopefully this video will assist others. I know it'll help some people. That'll be a really good thing. That's the whole point. So thanks for joining me. I'm glad. I want to do this because, um, I'm going to be sharing other videos in the future here that are going to be meant to be exposing different groups. And I thought maybe this video would sit there as like a. Just helping people process stuff. I'll, uh, I'll link your stuff down below too. But the, uh. I guess the only thing I'd say is just last thing you'd say if, if you had one word to give to somebody who is just. They're totally spinning. They've just started to realize how bad what they've been through was. Um, they're starting to look back and see it through different eyes, you know, like, what was that? What was that? That wasn't normal. That wasn't natural. That wasn't good. What would be your encouragement if you can give them, like, a piece of advice at that point? 321 04:20:42.000 --> 04:22:30.000 I remember when I first moved out to Colorado and I was really isolated on my own, uh, in a very tangible way because I didn't know anybody there. And I remember feeling all of those things, like I had mentioned earlier, the intense anxiety, struggling with the grief and depression. And I mean, I had an eating disorder at that time. That took root. It just haven't had it now in over a decade, but just all kinds of things. I was going through so much. And I knew, though simultaneously, that if I went through that process, if I didn't shut it down, if I didn't just distract or ignore or try to hold up the house of cards, so to speak, and I actually sought after the Lord, whatever that then was going to mean for the fallout from what I was finding out. I knew that where I was at was temporary. I knew that wasn't permanent. And I trusted the Lord in that promise that it wasn't going to be permanent. And he has complete. Has been more than faithful, and it hasn't been. And so my main hope in this conversation with you, Mike, and I was telling my husband about it earlier, um, he was like, you know, kind of, what are you hoping for in this? What are you like, I'm hoping that people will watch and they will see through my testimony of what the Lord has done in my life, what he has brought me through. Now that I'm done, I'm not fully baked, but, like, where I'm at, what he's done with me, that they will see that and they will know his faithfulness and that he offers that same to them. You can have it, too. You can have that relationship with the Lord as well. And your life can look very different. And so please, please continue to seek. Please don't give up. 322 04:22:30.000 --> 04:22:35.000 That's perfect. That's perfect. That's exactly, exactly the right thing.