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All right, I hate to start the stream off this heavy, but the first question up today is going to be, it's going to be heavy. Uh, can guys like the ones I'm about to show you, can fallen pastors be restored to ministry? That is, pastors who've done things that are so egregious that the right thing to do is to pull them out of ministry. Can they be brought back? So I'm sorry to do this, but you guys have been asking me this question. I've been getting a lot of this recently, and I thought maybe I could help you work through it Biblically. Here are some examples. I was not going to. I almost didn't do this. I hope I'm making a good choice by doing it. But I'm going to mention some specifically so we can understand the gravity of the question. Because I think a lot of people don't understand the gravity of the question. They, um, want to instantly restore someone who's fallen. And it's usually a bad idea. Restoring fallen pastors, in my opinion, is usually the wrong plan. It's not right for the most part, but I think it can be done. So we'll talk about that today and I'll try to bring whatever scripture I can to bear on that because the Bible simply isn't totally clear on this. It doesn't have, specific, to my knowledge, clear instruction on this. So I'm gathering principles from scripture and trying to apply them. At any rate, Stephen Lawson right here, um, who is a very well respected teacher, uh, and pastor who seemingly had a very solid ministry. And I'm, uh, not saying he didn't, but I didn't follow his stuff very well. So his reputation is very high, I'll say that. But he was having an ongoing adulterous type relationship with a woman 40 years younger than him. He's in his 70s. He's 74. She was in her late 20s. At this stage, this was just exposed. Phil Johnson, who was in a position to know, called it an adulterous affair. Um, didn't say whether it was physical, but he called it adulteress. At any rate, can he be restored to ministry? Um, not right now, that's for sure. But can he be? We'll talk about that. Carl Lentz, Hillsong, N.Y. very, very famous pastor. He was called the celebrity pastor. Not meaning that he's a celebrity who's a pastor, but rather he was a pastor. Two celebrities. He was Justin Bieber's pastor and probably the biggest hillsong or the second biggest in New York there. And I would say his ministry had some issues to start with. Right. But, um, but what he did was, as many of you already know, he had a secret mistress he would go clubbing with and he was sleeping with her, committing adultery, cheating on his wife, and betraying his, um, role and his call as a pastor and as a Christian. And he made a rule for this mistress that she's not allowed to Google him. She couldn't Google him because he was trying to keep these lives separate. He had to have known it would all come crashing down at some point. But for whatever reason he just kept pushing the envelope and, um, you know, we reap what we sow as much as we, we don't want to and we tell ourselves we won't. That was Carl Lynch. Can he be restored to ministry? The, uh, next one is Robert Morris, who, it was discovered, um, big, huge church, one of the biggest churches in the, in the US megachurch, a gateway church. He was, uh, you know, previously, like years ago, was, ah, an advisor, spiritual advisor for President Trump, whatever that means. I don't even know what that means, to be honest. Um, I don't even know. It's just about getting a voting block or if it was genuine in some sense. Anyway, Trump surrounded himself with some pretty weird people earlier on May, maybe this time around he'll find people that are less weird. Um, but Robert Moore is hugely successful, but it turns out I don't know his ministry in full. Okay. Obviously my opinion of him is tainted because what I know mostly about him is simply this. He was a child molester who sexually abused a girl starting when she was 12 back in the 80s. Did it for years. Did it for years. And this was recently exposed and who knows what else is going on. Did a guy like that just stop? Do, do. I don't. Okay. I'm just being a real person, just like you. I don't believe a guy like that just stopped.

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I think we should be open to there being a whole lot more dirty laundry. Doesn't mean I'm assuming it's all there, but I certainly don't believe that, that it's the only, the only thing that's in the past that he's got going on. Um, because. Would you. I mean, I'm going to answer this. No.

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Nope. Like that. Nope. Probably not like 99.999999%. No. Unless there's some sort of amazing, wow, look at what God has done. Um, and then very carefully, allowing you only to do like janitorial work or something. I don't know, but we'll talk more about this. Um, other than Morris, there's Mike Bickle, who's always been a controversial guy, the founder of ihop, the International House of Prayer. Not pancakes, different ihop. I'm a big fan of the pancakes.

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Um, at any rate, Mike, uh, Bickle, who had told multiple women that God told him his wife was going to die, and this justified him. Him starting sort of pre, um, new relationships with them, adulterous relationships with them, among other things. Mike Bickle was exposed. And this is horrible. I hesitated to even talk about these things, but what gets me is this. Scripture says, let the elders who are caught in grievous, serious sins like this be rebuked in the presence of all that the rest also may fear. These people all had worldwide impact, and so their rebuke has to be worldwide. Okay? If there were some local pastor, I would never bring them up. I would not showcase them. But they had worldwide impact. Their rebuke and correction has to be worldwide. Why? So you will fear? So I will fear. We should fear. God will not allow you to just get away with it.

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This is not okay. The church will not stand for this. The way the church can redeem her name is by calling these men out. And then we can be the spearhead of those rooting out this sort of stuff in our midst, not those covering it up as, ah, say, the Catholic Church got a reputation for doing over the years. So, yes, Mike Bickle, uh, lying in the name of God, false prophecy, and cheating on his wife, that's kind of a big deal. Okay, can he be restored? Like, five years from now? Are you going to be at a conference and Mike Bickle is going to be speaking there, and you're like, am I okay with this? Is this something that's all right? He certainly has hidden from any kind of accountability at this point.

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How about Todd Bentley? Here's one you guys may not have heard of. Okay, Todd Bentley was sort of a charismatic rising star in the early 2000s. Um, he committed adultery. He had this ministry called Fresh Fire Ministries, and he got divorced and ended up marrying the mistress. In 2008, he resigned from his ministry, Fresh Fire, because of his adulterous stuff and who knows what else. In 2009, he started a new ministry. What was it called? Fresh Fire usa. So he just called it Fresh Fire usa. And then claims that he was restored to ministry by Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, and some other people as well, who said, you know, this is the grace of God. We're restoring him to ministry. That sounds great. If it's real. Was it real? No, it wasn't real. His sins just continued. Years of other accusations, years of other accusations of gross immorality on top of the fact that the guy is just obviously a false minister. Like this. Like I don't know how anybody didn't see this. He talks about how God told him to kick a woman in the face to get her healed. To take a woman who has crippled, uh, legs and smash her legs like baseball bats on a stage. This guy is insane. Like if he's hearing from a spirit, it's Satan, it's not the holy spirit. Somehow Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, those others, they lift him up and it was a disaster. In 2020 A, there was all these accusations against Todd Bentley. So this is years, 11 years later, right? Um, a panel of charismatic leaders, including Dr. Michael Brown, they were brought in to investigate these things and hold him accountable. Now he had no, there was no like legal recourse that they had. This was just sort of like among friends kind of thing. They said, we'll hold him accountable. Let's investigate the matters thoroughly. They interviewed tons of people. They 14 or 15 years of um, evidence and testimonies and they said the following.

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And uh, Michael Brown, I think was the one who released the statement. He says there are credible accusations of a steady pattern, steady pattern of immoral, of ungodly and immoral behavior confirmed by an independent investigators interviews dating from 2008 to 2019, along with other testimonies dating back to 2004. And while we only took into account firsthand reports, there are many other second and third hand reports repeating the same accusations. Sadly, we see no signs of true, lasting repentance. Instead we see a steady pattern of compromised behavior, including credible accusations, credible accusations of adultery, sexting, including the exchange of nude pictures or videos, vulgar language and substance abuse.

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Todd Bentley is still doing ministry with Freshfire usa. He's still claiming that he's anointed and called of God. He's posting videos on a regular basis and still speaking in various places. He was restored, but he was never restored. He was never restored. He never should have been in ministry. He's also insane. Okay? Todd Bentley's different than some of these other ones. I give you a variety okay. Of men here. Are you okay with these men ever coming back into ministry?

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Well, it's not up to you. And this is, this is one of the first things I want to say is like, it's not up to me and it's not up to you. I don't have authority over these men. I might have a judgment, a discernment in my mind, but I don't get to decide any of this. So, um, I'm hoping this video serves as counsel.

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Right. From me to you, from me to whoever might be listening to say, how can we work through these types of things? Because there are some pastors, and I think it's the exception to the rule. There are some pastors who fall, grievously fall. They commit adultery, they embezzle church funds, they lie, they did something terrible, they had false teaching. And then they come back and God uses them greatly. And they've truly been changed. But it seems that this is the exception to the rule. All of the men I just listed, they all seem to be fully resisting any genuine life transformation. So the answer is generally no, but sometimes yes. Let's talk about the details. Okay, so here's. I'm going to give you guys rules for restoring fallen pastors. Okay? I've written these things down. I could maybe. I need to change this later on. I've got 13 rules for restoring fallen pastors. I'm going to run through them now. Then we're going to go to all your questions in the live chat. My name is Mike Wenger. I'm here to help you learn to think biblically about everything. And I'm wearing a shirt that says former embryo because.

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Right. Uh, you were in your mother's womb. It was not some other thing that came out and became a person later. Anyway, that's just to get your worldview lined up there with, I think, scripture on the topic and reality. Um, so rule number one for restoring fallen pastors, uh, don't expect it. And please hear all of the 13 rules before I give you, uh, before you give your judgment on my answer, because some of these will balance each other out. You'll think I'm unbalanced, perhaps, but just keep listening, please. So, number one, don't expect it. Don't expect it. Um, it seems that the vast majority do not get restored. The same thing that had the man, uh, committing these grievous sins. And in most of the cases, maybe every case I mentioned, this was a guy who was, it was ongoing sin. He was hiding, like, double life type stuff, and then he was exposed against his will. In all those cases, um, when it's that kind of thing, it's especially unlikely the same guy who was hiding it and stuff like that is not likely to be changed. Do not expect restoration. In fact, you should just take it off the table and stop thinking about it. When a man first falls, restoration should be to ministry. Should be the last thing on your mind and the very last thing on his mind. Restoration of the man to God should be the thing we should be worried about.

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Number two rules for restoring fallen pastors is that they should be exposed.

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They should be exposed. Scripture says to rebuke in the presence of all. I mentioned this earlier, but I'm going to show you the verse. First Timothy 5:20. That was odd. Okay, it's working. First Timothy 5:20 says this.

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As for those. This is speaking of elders who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear. It is not a happy day to call out elders who persist in serious, like disqualifying sins. It is not a happy day, but it's a necessity that we are very honest and open with whatever his sphere of influence is. If it's the local church, you just tell the local church, okay? You don't need to announce beyond his influence. If the elder only has influence in this one little area, you need to let those people know and you let the other elders know as well.

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In the case of someone like me who has such a. I'm not, I'm not your elder, right? But I am someone who tries to represent Christ online with my teaching and with the help that I try to offer people and point them to Jesus as their only source of salvation and forgiveness of your sins with someone like me. If I was to publicly fall, if the board of Bible Thinker was to say, mike, you are disqualified from ministry, they would have to put a video on my channel, right? Saying, this is what happened. This is why he's come down. Not for my sake. That would rip me up. For your sake, okay? For everybody's sake, for the sake of the Gospel of Christ, for the rest, that they may also stand in fear. This is just what's appropriate. I don't like it because that's threatening to me because I want to self preserve no matter what. And even the hypothetical of me falling, I would somehow want to prevent that from happening. But that would be the biblical and right thing to do. Rebuke in the presence of all. Is this always a removal from ministry? Um, not necessarily. Every sin is a removal from ministry, of course, but they should be exposed when there is a grievous like you're disqualified type sin. Peter had committed a sin in Galatians 2. We read about this and Paul confronts him to his face in front of everybody. So let me show it to you. Galatians 2. The sin is actually pretty subtle, but it's a big deal. Um, maybe I should say it's the signaling of what he did.

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Peter, when he goes and meets with the Galatian people, he's eating with them, he's enjoying them. When the Jews show up, specifically because there's going to be some Jewish people among the Galatians, but the Jews from Jerusalem, who are very more sectarian, um, they won't eat with the Gentiles. And so Peter doesn't eat with the Gentiles. And he sort of plays a game implying that Gentiles are not clean before God. Big deal. Implies that the Gospel hasn't done its job among the Gentiles. Sort of undoes Acts 15. Anyway, he says it, uh, says here in Galatians 2. For before men, certain men came from James. He was eating with the Gentiles, but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas, that's Peter before them all. If you though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews? He's calling out Peter for his hypocrisy. Um, he's like saying, hey, you weren't doing this before, now you're doing it.

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This was a sin. This was a hypocritical, hypocritical thing they did. And it was bad and it was harmful to the gospel.

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Paul called him out publicly on it because it was a public sin.

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How much more when it's a situation like this? So they should be exposed. I think churches, they go to self preservation mode and they try to help. And I've been involved in churches plenty of times in leadership in different churches as well.

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The desire to keep it quiet is very strong, but the command of Scripture is very clear. They have to be exposed. If there is a serious sin issue among the elder, they have to be publicly exposed. I don't like it, but, uh, whether I like it or not, it's what's good.

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I don't like flossing either.

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You get the idea. All right, this is number three. Rule number three.

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Um, we must be willing to forgive them. Rule number three. Yeah, they should be exposed. Yep, that's going to be a problem. It's going to cause all sorts of issues in the church. It's going to be really, really hard days and hard season for the fellowship. But the fellowship also has to be willing to forgive them. Notice I didn't say you just totally forgive them. Willing to forgive forgiveness is like an offer we provide to people, and whether they can receive it or not depends on their behavior. Whether the man receives it or not depends on his behavior. But there is a willingness, a desire to forgive in our hearts. If you don't have that desire to forgive, if you think to yourself, if that guy really repented, if he really humbled himself and he came and repented, would I forgive? And your answer is, oh, I don't think so. That's a sin issue you've got in your heart. Now, if he doesn't repent, your forgiveness remains an offer that is unreceived.

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There's a difference between forgiveness and restoration, the offer of forgiveness and the reception of forgiveness.

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But leaders who sin aren't special. They're not in, uh, an unforgivable category where you forgive other people but not them.

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Uh, but I will say forgiveness is not the same as trust, is not the same as relying upon them. Forgiving them does not restore them to ministry. Forgiving them does not give them any responsibility whatsoever. It's merely they're part of the body of Christ and they're forgiven by that body. So they're embraced, like, we forgive you. We will not hold that against you in our relationships. That doesn't mean we're going to trust you with a ministry again. That's not guaranteed at all. So you have to be willing to forgive. That was rule number three. Number four would be, um, what does the Bible say about this? Um, there are examples in the Bible of restoring fallen people, I'll put it that way. So number four is what examples are in the Bible. Um, David, for instance, committed, uh, adultery and murder. And, uh, he was a king. He was not an elder, but he was restored. And so this is at least a positive example for at least the potential of restoration. It's like saying, hey, you know, uh, in a way, being an elder is a bigger deal than being a king, because a king is not personally leading you spiritually, they're leading the government. And to me, honestly, I find that the people who spiritually ministered into my life are a bigger deal in my life than the president of the US or the ruler of this or that or My boss at work or something like that. It's just a lot of a bigger deal.

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Um, so I'm not going to say that they're the same thing. But God did restore him, um, after adultery and murder. And he was chastened heavily for this. He was actually on the run for a whole season where he fled in a rebellion. His own son Absalom came against him and he fled. And all kinds of craziness happened as a result of this. It was a real huge disaster. There was a long term chastening that he underwent. Even though there was real forgiveness, the moment he needed forgiveness, there was still a chastening. So the sin has to still be shown to be serious. David was not quickly restored. Still, David's not an elder. David's not in the church. There's actually people who are leaders of Israel who are disqualified from eldership ministry. I don't want to say that they're parallel. So yes, it's an example, but it does not answer the full question. Peter, Peter's an example. That's closer to it. Peter denied Christ, um, three times. You guys know the whole thing. The rooster crows, he denies Jesus.

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This is to us maybe not as big of a deal. We're usually thinking of adultery when we think of pastors falling.

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This is a huge deal. Denying Jesus, denying Christ is like the biggest deal in, uh, a very real sense. It's bigger than adultery.

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Catch that? Like, just consider for a moment the importance of the name of Jesus.

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How this is the difference between salvation and damnation is Christ. And to deny Christ is a big deal. Now, Peter didn't just deny him, he denied him three times. He didn't just do it, he did it as an apostle. And he didn't just do it three times as an apostle. He did it after having said just before, I will never deny you. I will never betray you. When Jesus told them, you're all going to betray me tonight, you're all going to fall, uh, away. And Peter says, no, I will not do this. Uh, and this is then connected to him falling. So he weeps bitterly after he denies Christ. Well, in John 21, now you guys know Peter still is Peter the apostle Peter, like, this is still his ministry and his role. It doesn't stop. He had like a seriously bad time. He had a major failing. It can't be understated how big of a deal it is, but he was still restored. In fact, we even read his restoration in John chapter 21.

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When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon, Peter, now this is after the resurrection. Jesus is one of his appearances. And they do breakfast. And then he says to Simon, simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?

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Why is that so significant? Because earlier Jesus said to them, you know, you'll all walk away. You'll all be betraying me. And he goes, I would never deny you. I'd never betray you. Even if everyone else turns, uh, their back on you, not me, I'm willing to die for you. The implication is, I love you more than them.

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And now he says, simon, do you love me more than these? And he doesn't say, I love them. I love you more than others. He just says, yes, Lord, you know that I love you.

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So he says, feed my lambs. This is a reinstatement. This is him. So what happened is after the denial of Christ, Peter goes back to fishing. Now, it's thought by many that Peter is fishing because he's. He's, um, given up this apostolic calling, and now he's just going to go back to fishing. Remember when Jesus met him? He goes, come, follow me. I'll make you fishers of men. And they just leave their boats there. Now he's back in Galilee, and he's back fishing again. Because it seems as though he's like it's over. Even though he knows Christ has risen, he doesn't seem to think he has been restored to his old ministry yet. That's how it. How it looks now. It might just be something less. It could be that Peter's like, no, I'm fishing because we're hungry. He's just fishing because they're hungry. And that may be the case. Um, but the timing is suspicious, the way that it all plays out. And he calls him to feed his lambs. He's calling him back to that human ministry. And he said to him a second time, simon, son of John, do you love me? He said to him, m. Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.

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That's the second time. Now, how many times did Peter deny Jesus? Three times.

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And so he says, tend my sheep. That's again pointing into ministry. He said to him the third time, simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved. He said to him the third time, do you love me? And he said to him, lord, you know everything. You know that I love you. His love was real.

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He genuinely loved him. The betrayal was this temporary failing because of fear, because of lack of faith, because of problems, that Peter had genuine issues. But then Jesus tells him, feed my sheep.

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This is Peter being Put back into ministry after a horrible failing. Now, it wasn't the kind of failing where he's hiding a secret, like major disqualifying sin for like 10 years, where he's got like an adulterous affair or he's cheating on his wife with different women throughout time. It's not like that, okay? It was momentary, it was instantaneous. It was like just overstating his faith, overthinking his own commitment to Christ and, um, and then falling and failing and denying Christ. But he does get restored. And I find this a very hopeful thing. A very hopeful thing. I'll give you one more example. Um, and that's Mark, the author of the Gospel of Mark. He's actually in the Book of Acts as well. And in the Book of Acts, he's traveling with Paul and Barnabas on missions, doing missionary. You know, they had, you know, in, uh, Paul's missionary journeys, he's got multiple missionary journeys where he does this, like, circuit around Mediterranean area. And in one of those circuits, Mark abandons them. And we read about this in Acts 13:13, Acts 13:13, it says now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga, and in Pamphylia. And John, that's. His name is John. Mark. Okay, so sometimes he's called John, sometimes Mark, uh, left them and returned to Jerusalem. Now, that doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but he basically took off and went back to the safe place, to Jerusalem, to where, you know, Mom's well off and she's got a nice home there and stuff like that. Okay, I'm giving you more info than what you're seeing, but it's true. Okay, it's there. Um, so then this really bothered Paul. And later on, Paul and Barnabas are planning another missionary journey. And Paul's like, I don't want to take Mark. I don't want to take John, Mark, because he betrayed us, effectively. He abandoned us. So Acts 15, verse 36.

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And after some days, Paul said to Barnabas, let us return and visit the brothers in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord and see how they are now. Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark, but Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work.

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The idea is that he wrongly left them. Like he wimped out, like he was unreliable, like, I don't trust that man. His priorities were wrong, his commitment was incomplete. And so I don't want him Traveling with us. Is this adultery? Is this. No, no, no, no. It's not that I don't want us to think it is that. I'm just trying to find some examples in Scripture that in any way resemble people being disqualified in some way and then being brought back to ministry. So when there arose a sharp disagreement, so they actually split. Barnabas takes Mark, and then Paul goes a different way and he takes Silas with him. And, um, it's a really interesting story later on. A lot of people miss this. In Second Timothy, chapter four, Paul writes to Timothy, and this is the last time he'll mention Mark.

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And he says to Timothy, luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you. For he's very useful to me for ministry. Years go by, years go by. I love this. This is exciting to me. It's encouraging to me. And Paul says of Mark, he's very useful to me for ministry. He didn't have. He could have just said, bring Mark with you. He added these words perhaps as an encouragement to Mark. Maybe I'm, um, conjecture here, but maybe where he wanted Mark to know and to see written so that he could be told by Timothy, like, hey, look, he says you're very useful to him in ministry, that Mark would know whatever issues you have before you've overcome those things, you are someone I appeal to. I look to you, brother. Come and help. I think that's an encouraging thing. I think that's a wonderful thing. And there's plenty of ways in which pastors in general fail and need to be restored in little ways all the time. There's plenty of things that you do wrong that you didn't know you were doing wrong because you had good intentions and you just had bad methods or maybe, uh, sinful, um, uh, like pride or something else that was motivating you, and you couldn't see it. You couldn't see it. And then years down the road, you look back and you go, oh, and so you gotta learn these things. That's true. Um, none of these things that I've given are examples of a pastor hiding serial adultery over long period of time. David comes close, but David was not a pastor, right? I mean, if David had been a pastor and done those things, uh, I don't know that he would have ever been brought back into that ministry. It's just different. Kings are different than pastors.

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So restoration and grace are major themes in scripture. Okay, that's the last thing I'll say Scripture seems to give us on this is restoration and grace are major Themes in scripture. Israel experiences it a lot. I think it should position us to a place where we don't just say, if you do X, you can never come back. That seems wrong. Even though of the examples I've given you, like, say, Robert Morris, I can't see ever letting that guy back into ministry.

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Maybe I'm wrong there. Okay, maybe. Maybe I'm not being restorative enough. But I feel that if you took advantage of the vulnerable, this vulnerable underage girl, like, how can I put you in a position where you could do that again? Whereas other things, they seem like they're not as much taking advantage of the vulnerable. They're more about sinning in ways with at least adults. I don't know. I don't know. God help us. Have wisdom. This is hard stuff. Rule number five, restoration, um, to God, not ministry, is our goal. Um, this is super important. If a guy has fallen and the first thing he wants to do is get back in ministry, that's a huge sign that he is not okay. If a guy falls and the first thing you think, I saw this when Mike Bickle fell when he was exposed. And I saw under. Under the announcements, under the things where people were seeing online, say, on X on Twitter, um, the. Which seems to be the freest of the popular social media platforms. Um, the comments were like, oh, I hope God restores him to ministry. God can restore. God is gracious. He can restore. And I just thought, bad timing, guys. This is incorrect. He. He needs to be not restored, at least for a. For a season. And by a season, I mean probably years. Restoration to God is the goal, not restoration to ministry.

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Ministries that have become dependent on pastors may rush to restoration because they're like, what are we going to do? This really hurts us even worse if he's populated his board with yes men who lack the ability to stand up and sit him down.

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People online may also rush to restore a pastor who's fallen because they just want to be blessed again. Like, if I fell, a lot of you would just want to see me now. A lot of you would not. Okay, because you'd be more. Honestly, you think more like me and be like, no, no rush if you ever come back. It's certainly not anytime soon. Um, but people online may rush because they want to be blessed again. They're like, I really like his ministry. I want to be blessed again. But they're not thinking deeper about this than what they enjoy and what they feel ministers to them, they need to go deeper than that. God is first not ministry.

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When.

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When you take a pastor through restoration of his walk with God, it involves going really deep into all the real issues and reestablishing patterns of behavior and unveiling repentance on issues the guy doesn't even know about. Because the one sin that God exposed is not the only sin that has to be dealt with. That's never the case. So this leads to rule number six. Things are probably way worse than you think. Or he thinks, for that matter. They're probably way worse than you or he thinks. This seems to be the case in just about every example I've heard. When I've heard credible accusations, I can think of one example, um, against a leader, um, and, uh, I put forward those accusations. Um, gosh, I can't tell you guys this story. I can't for a number of reasons. But long story short, years down the road, um, it was exposed that there was a lot more going on, and it was always going on, than what we even knew about in these credible accusations. Now, as a former domestic violence counselor, I know that I was trained to know this as well, that when a woman comes and says, um, usually it's a woman, sometimes it's men, says, I'm being abused. He physically abused me. He does this to me or that to me. They almost always minimize it, even when they're talking to you about it the first time. And it takes a lot of talking before they finally open up and tell you everything. If someone tells you, he hit me, they're probably going to tell you 10% of what actually happened and not the whole story. That's just the way humans are.

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Usually when a guy gets caught, he's going to give you only as little info as possible. Now, we can see this with, say, Steve Lawson.

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Um, he's gone silent, okay, Online, he's gone silent. The church has. And I don't fault the church for this, but they've only shared the minor. The smallest bit of info that was made public, and that's it. What else has gone on? How big is this story? I don't know. I'm not going to speculate, because it's beyond me. But I'll say that when I see the tip of an iceberg, you know, this may be that there's a giant iceberg beneath. We really don't know.

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Um, more often than not, things are way worse than you think. And they're usually way worse than the man thinks. The man who's fallen because he has been compromising all kinds of ways that led up to this sin. So I know of one pastor who fell and was restored in a godly, righteous way. At least I believe that that's the case. And he describes this experience as when the sin was first exposed. Um, and I don't remember how it was exposed when it first came out, that he knew that the sin was horrible and grievous, but he didn't realize there was all these other things he did that contributed to it and led to it, that built a bridge to this grievous sin. And it took him a really long time, very long time, like not even months, very long time to start to unpack all of the different ways in which he had compromised leading up to this big sin so that then he could become an actual new man. That is a beautiful story to me, a guy that genuinely says, look, it wasn't just that I committed adultery. It's that I have been letting my eyes wander for years. It wasn't just that I did this. It's that I have been feeding off of flirtations with women other than my wife forever.

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And that insecurity and that need for approval and that seeking of self, um, exaltation. That, that, that's our pride. That's all just pride. Being exposed there and starts to realize there's all these other layers of issues that are going on, secrets that are being hidden and lots of little things that are, that are being done. When a person gets exposed, they've got to go a lot deeper than just the sin.

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So is this pastor who wants to be restored, he shouldn't even want to be restored, to be honest. He should just want to be restored to God. But is he honest and willing to root out all the sin, or is he minimizing, denying and blaming? That's the unholy trinity of not facing your sin. You minimize. That is, I will say, well, we had an inappropriate relationship instead of calling it what it is. I will deny anything you don't know about. I'm going to deny anything you can't prove. I'm going to say it didn't happen, and then I will blame. Well, I wouldn't have done this if my wife wasn't doing this or if you guys. I'm stressed out because I'm overworked and you guys aren't helping me and you're not not stepping up in your job. Blame, blame, blame. So minimize deny blame. That's a symptom of an unrepentant heart that's only trying to do damage control and is not trying to get right with God.

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I feel like I want to say that louder again.

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Think about what I just said. This is like a big red flag. Minimizing, denying and blaming is a sign of an unrepentant heart that only wants to do damage control to get their life back. They don't actually want to get right with God.

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So that leads us to number seven, rule number seven.

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Consider it. If you think it's worthwhile or not. Don't rush. The seventh rule is don't rush. I once visited a. Visited a church not too far from where I live, actually. And I had the sad experience of attending this church on the day that they were sharing that one of their pastors had committed adultery. This, um, does not happen often. Okay. And in this church, the pastor, uh, it was, I mean, it was publicly shared. I could share it with you. But basically the pastor, the senior pastor, his daughter had gotten married. The man she married was also a pastor at the church, an assistant pastor doing whatever ministries. I don't remember. He had committed adultery. And they brought him before the congregation to do two things. To tell them that he had been exposed and that he had committed adultery. And for him to then take the microphone and then he lectured the congregation on how they should keep themselves pure. I, uh, kid you not. I kid you not. This is deflecting, by the way. This is not him being accountable. I'm going to turn it into a lecture for you guys, you know, Yeah, I really messed up and really blew it. And then they kept him in ministry. He didn't even take a break.

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I have no words.

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Don't rush. This is the opposite of don't rush it.

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I know there would have been consequences if he took a break. He's got to get a job. The senior pastor's like, how's my daughter gonna, like, keep her house and feed her kids if he loses his job here? And there was a lot of favoritism and rose colored lenses and, um, to be honest, um, what do they call it when you favor your family in a bad way in the workplace?

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Um, you know, the word there was that going on.

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Shocking. This is an otherwise fairly solid church. But they had a very much had a weak spot here. And I, and I guarantee you it caused them more problems down the road. Because when you don't do what God says, it's going to cause problems. You cannot rush these things. The one pastor I know who was really, truly restored after adultery and brought into, um, significant ministry afterwards, he's not the senior pastor of a church. But significant ministry afterwards.

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He said, you can't be restored quickly. It can't even be a year. You need serious time. Like you have to. You've lost your job. Go find other employment, get money some other way. You can't be rushing back there to get back to your job. This has to be restoration between you and God with no plan to get back in a pulpit. This is why you can't rush it. If at any point the guy's like, hey, how long till I can get back in there? Then it's like, stop. Go back to start, you know, do not collect $200. Go to jail. Go to ministry jail. Do not click $200 like you. That's a big red flag.

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Social media people I see online calling for restoration five seconds after a guy falls is incorrect. Now let me give you biblical scripture on this. It's not directly about it, but I think you'll see how it relates in relation to calling or, ah, raising up leaders. Paul says to Timothy, do not be hasty in the laying on of hands. That phrase, laying on of hands refers to like, uh, putting someone in a position of leadership. Now, we all lay our hands on you. We sort of, um, impart to you this sort of like authority and eldership or whatever role it is you're getting. Nor take part in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

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I can say this is true for churches. When a church hastily lays hands on someone who is being restored, they may take part in their sins and they may cause, uh, themselves to become impure as a congregation.

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That's a big deal.

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Now let's look at now you're like, but Mike, this is about new leaders. This is not about old leaders and new leaders. Yes, but as far as a fallen pastor goes, he's basically going to be a new leader, but with a bad track record. It's even worse. He should wait even longer. He's got to prove himself over time. Let me back up now. Check out the context of this. This is really significant. Starting in verse 19, the same section of Scripture, do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Doesn't mean he's innocent if you don't have enough witnesses. But it means you're not going to find, um, that proof. Um, and obviously like a videotape, a recording, DNA evidence, all those things are witnesses.

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Um, as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.

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This is the context of the statement about not being Hasty and laying hands on people.

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That is really cool to me. I actually think this is the closest thing we have to a ah, verse about restoring fallen pastors.

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Don't be hasty. Right? Remember Treebeard's advice to the hobbits. Don't be hasty. Hobbits.

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It's going to be like a Treebeard. There's going to be an ent thing. Lord of the Rings analogy. The Ents, right? They take so long saying good morning that it's nighttime by the time they're finished.

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The Ents.

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It was about six years I heard before the, uh, one pastor I know who went through this process six years before he taught again, don't be hasty because restoring the man to ministry is not a priority. Restoring him to God is ministry. Maybe, possibly, maybe not.

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Any sort of one step entry.

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This goes under the don't rush category. Um, a one step entry into the old position seems incredibly unwise. And I'll give you a scripture on this too. So if a pastor is going to be restored, he can, um, be a janitor, he can help serve in the homeless ministry, he can do this or that. He can do a hundred other things before he ever gets back into the pulpit. I think that that's great wisdom to do that. So Luke chapter 16, verse 10. Jesus says that one who's faithful in very little is also faithful in much. And one who's dishonest in little is very little is also dishonest in much. If a pastor is not willing to do lower and what he might consider lesser ministry positions, then that's because he doesn't, he doesn't actually care about ministry. He cares about his pride and him being up in the pulpit.

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I think it was like two or three weeks ago. I did a, uh, security detail for the women's study at our church. I just stood and walked around the parking lot for a little while and I remember someone coming up to me and they said, um, oh, guys, I'm just being real. This is strange. It's funny, but strange. Um, they were like, oh, Mike Winger is doing, uh, our security thing. And I was just like.

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They said people online would be surprised if they knew that. And I thought they shouldn't be.

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They really shouldn't be. Like, what kind of a, what kind of a person would I be? I can understand being too busy to do something. Okay, that's fair. I'm too busy. Not too important. You're not too important to do any ministry. Maybe you have other priorities. Maybe you're too busy. Can't do it that night. Fine. You are not too important.

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If a pastor wants a one step, former pastor, fallen pastor, one step being brought back into his previous thing, I think that's unwise. You can't test him. If he does that, you can't prove that he's faithful in much because he's not being faithful in little. Um, it may show ambition and selfish pride. It may also incentivize him to fake his repentance because then he can get back in and he just gets better at covering his tracks. How can you prove he's not? We need to not rush years. Years.

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Rule number eight. There's probably more that we need beyond these, but this, uh, is all about the local church. Um, I have no ability to determine whether, say, Steve Lawson in five years shows back up, and I have no ability to determine whether he is sincere in his transformation and repentance. And having dealt with these issues, I would have to simply trust that a local church, a group of elders, have really restored him. Now, red flags would be these aren't a local group of elders. These are elders that live in other states and other cities that don't even really know him and they just get on zoom calls and that's his restoration. No, no, no. I need the church that he has to be a member at that. He, if they have membership that he has to belong to, he's submitting to those leaders and they're walking him baby, stepping him through the process of personal restoration. And then at one point they say, we really believe and we're putting. You put your trust in us behind him as well. We're going to put our necks on the line that we think that he's genuine, that I can respect godly accountability.

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Um, I know of one of these men who I've mentioned here. Um, he said he would submit to his board and they didn't restore him in ministry, and so he dissolved his board and so he wouldn't have to. Um, Mike Bickle, um, after he was exposed, he shut out even his closest friends who came out and said I was endorsing him. I said all these accusations were false. He lied to me too, guys. I can't even get him to answer my phone calls anymore. He won't. He's shutting out everybody who won't listen to him. So Mike Bickles evidencing the exact worst thing you can for restoration. Um, um, Todd Bentley was reinstalled by strangers into, um, a renamed ministry. And now he continues to go without any accountability whatsoever. That's the situation. This is not local. None of these are local church. Right. Local churches. I belong. Now, you guys can know this about me. I have this ministry we reach internationally, but I submit to the leaders of my m. Local church. They're my elders and if they held me accountable in some sense and said, mike, you need to sit down here, I would listen to them. That's the commitment I've made as, uh, submitting to the leaders of my local church, as I suggest you do the same. They're not perfect. They will fail. But so will you. Okay? You're not, you're not replacing. If you won't listen to the elders, you're not replacing them with somebody better when you're the one doing it. You're not. You're not really going to be any better than them.

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Try to do the best you can to go within the means that God has established, which is the local church.

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Social media cannot restore a man. He's not restored. He's just doing things again. He's not actually restored unless the local church is involved. I don't want. I don't want to see that man back in ministry. Um, number nine, requirements for ministry do not change if a man is going to be restored.

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Titus.

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I usually go to First Timothy, so I'm going to go to Titus just for some variety. First Timothy.

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So one Timothy, uh, three has it and Titus chapter one has it. These are requirements for ministry if a man's going to be restored. This list right here, this is what he's got to be. Above reproach. The husband of one wife, his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer as God's steward must be above reproach.

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He must not be arrogant or quick tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good self, controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. I love reading these requirements because it excites me to think that this is the bones of the church, is that we require godliness and character and integrity. Not just well dressed, smooth talker, charismatic, good with people. That is not the requirements. We need godly men, upright men.

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So if a man fell because he was not these things, he can be restored when he is these things. That's what the requirement means to me. That's how I would apply it to restoration. Is the man now these things? Maybe he wasn't in the past, maybe he blew. Is he these things now? Not. Has enough time gone by? Yes, I Said a lot of time has to go by, but time does not equal restoration. You could wait 10 years. The guy might be worse than ever. He needs to exhibit these character traits again. Why? The local church has to be there. They got to be involved in his life. He has to have good testimony among unbelievers, his family, affirming that he's restored and that you can. Even if you can believe them, you have to make that judgment. Call anyway. And then me and you on the Internet, we're seeing these pastors. We have to trust that their local church has done a good job. Sometimes we'll be right, Sometimes we'll be wrong. Um, but there's no better recourse. I can't judge the man's character from a thousand miles away. I can't. You know, Steve Lawson could deliver an incredible sermon. Okay, I can judge his ability to deliver an incredible sermon. I can't judge his character. We need the local church for that.

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So those are the requirements. Does the man exhibit these things? Has he been exhibiting them for long enough that we would call them character traits and not just an act? And, um, do we have any protections in place, like ways in which we would poke a little and prove that he's legit? For instance, giving him lesser responsibilities first and seeing if he's truly faithful in those things, with no timeline and no expectation of ever doing more.

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Number 10, ask. Is this man playing me?

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Is he playing me? Um. There may be high motivations to do so. Some of these fallen pastors have been playing you for years, and you caught them, and then they've refined their strategies, and now they're playing you again.

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You have to ask this question. If you don't acknowledge that it's entirely possible Todd, uh, Bentley has been playing people forever. It's his M.O. he always plays. He plays himself. Everything he does is a game, is a show, is fake, even if he doesn't realize it because his layers of deception are so deep. That's my read on Todd Bentley. I know I haven't spoken of him before. Plenty of other people have exposed this guy.

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Um, you don't kick people in the face to heal them. And it's sad when other people are so gullible that they can't see the problem with that, where they go, well, maybe that's what God wanted to do. Maybe God has. People do weird things sometimes, and you're like, well, he's playing you. Is he playing me? M. You have to ask the question. You've got to seriously consider the possibility don't be overly suspicious. But, you know. All right. Number 11. Number 11. I don't have enough fingers for this. He may serve in different ways than before. Perhaps the man will have a ceil. I, uh, think this is up to the local church. Maybe he gets to teach occasionally, but he's not on staff as a pastor. Maybe he gets to share at certain events or in certain small group capacities, but never from the pulpit on stage for whatever reason. Sin is complicated. Maybe there's people in the congregation that he has sinned against, that he's still working through restoration with them. Or maybe it just can never happen. And then the elders have to make decisions about where will they let him serve, in what capacities. If a pastor had pushed himself upon a woman who didn't want it, and that woman was part of that congregation, and let's pretend the pastor really repented and was really changed, should we have him teaching when she's there?

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These are fair questions to ask. And there may be limits. And you may even simply say to the man, we want you to serve. We're going to say that you're ready, but you really should go somewhere else because it's just not going to happen here.

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That m. That's an option that I think should be available. And the leaders of the church need to make this decision.

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Consider Judas. Like, if Judas had repented, um, would you ever put him back in charge of the money?

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Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. If he truly. If he showed he was a new man, would you? Maybe you would, and maybe you wouldn't, or maybe you would, but he have a partner who is with him at all times to make sure. Um, if a pastor had committed. Had an affair with a congregant. A congregant, could you ever let him be a pastor again? Maybe not. I'm just saying it's a long shot, and every situation can be a little different. But I understand why there may be a ceiling. Depending on the situation, there may be a ceiling. If it was child abuse. Robert Morris, child abuse. To me, this branches into a whole new category. Um, if he, in fact, sexually abused a child, I mean, I mean, I'm for things like the death penalty for situations like that. So, like the idea of. Of him becoming a pastor in the future after that, I think. I think. Seems to me there's more likely there's a ceiling there, but I don't have the judgment for you guys on that. I'm just saying. Here's something to consider. Number, uh, 12. Rule number 12. Are there some sins that are just too much?

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Um, so maybe not just a ceiling? I kind of talked about this already, but. But perhaps certain sins. You know what, that was just too much. The stakes were too high. The sin you committed was too big of a deal. We will never, ever allow you to serve in any sort of leadership capacity ever again.

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That may be the case. That may well be the case.

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Life is rough. And, um, only the imagination of human, of humans limits how wicked and how horrible our sins can be. So that may be the case. I don't know.

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I think there's probably some sense that are too much. I just don't know exactly how to give you a list. That's what I would say. Number 13. Grace, um, is needed for all Christians, including pastors. The last thing I'll say is this is your pastors will fail. I have failed as a pastor. And I have sensed that when I failed, people not sinning greatly, not compromising my actual, like, role as a pastor, but I definitely failed where I could see it in the eyes of individuals who were like, I'm disappointed in you. And the amount of frustration and anger that can come as a result of that because you're in such a trusted position, even when you fail in ways that are not disqualifying, um, is pretty intense. Um, we all fail. We all need grace. We all need grace, including your pastor. He needs grace every day. Today when he woke up, he needed grace. Tomorrow when he, when he, when he gets up and does something in the church, he's going to need grace. Sunday morning, he needs your grace. Not to excuse sin, but to realize that we're all fallible people. So please don't, um, don't be too harsh on your leaders.

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Um, yeah, that's a, that's about all I could say on that. Um, I know that was a. That was long, but that's what I do. So let's go. Question number two. We're going to your guys questions in the live chat. And here we go. Um, Meg B. Says, do you believe Jesus did his ministry of preaching, teaching and healing out of his divinity or out of his humanity empowered by the Holy Spirit in light of Matthew 3, 16 and 17? And then what about us? This, um, has become a bit of a topic. You know, it never was that much to me when I was. We think of like the early 2000s or something. I never heard people saying these things. But there is a group of like, say, Bethel or Todd White teaches this and he. I think Todd White's kind of Concerned more than kind of concerning. I think he's deeply problematic. Um, but guys like Bill Johnson and I've got videos teaching on some of these guys and their ministries because they have such wide reach that it requires some wisdom on it. But they'll say Jesus didn't actually do anything as God. That's the phrase they'll use as God. And then some have taken this to mean that they're saying Jesus wasn't like his actual nature. He wasn't God while he was walking the earth. And that's total heresy if you say that. Todd White has kind of said that and kind of not said that. And he said it both ways. And so nobody knows what to think of that, or everybody thinks different things about it. Um, Bill Johnson, I don't think he's actually said Jesus was ever not God. I think he's really expressly said the opposite, to my understanding. But these guys, they're hugely influential in the charismatic circles, and they say, look, Jesus did everything as a human, so he's God, but he doesn't tap into that. He does it as a human, using only the power of the Holy Spirit. And the reason they say this, and I think that, you know this, Megby, the reason they say this is because they want to say you can do everything Jesus did.

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See that this is a, uh, signs and wonders teaching. This is about you doing signs and miracles and wonders and healings and raising the dead and walking on water and moving mountains around and cursing fig trees. Everything Jesus did, you can do. And you can do it in the same fashion he did. Because even though he's God, he didn't do his miracles as God. Um, does Scripture teach that? Let's look at the verse that you mentioned, which is Matthew 3:16.

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And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him. And he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him. And behold, a voice from heaven said, this is my beloved Son, with whom I'm well pleased. What you should immediately notice about this verse as we read it is it has no clear teaching on the topic of whether Jesus did anything as God.

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It just doesn't have any clear. And this is one of the problems with some of the charismatic teaching, okay, is you have a doctrine about Jesus and how he does his miracles, and then you have a proof text. And just because it mentions the Spirit descending. Now, my doctrine is true. Like, it's just not. There's nothing explicit in here. And I don't see the logical connection.

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People could try to make that connection. Okay, they can say, well, look, Jesus didn't do miracles before this, right? Correct. And he did do miracles after this, right? Correct. So a, uh, key to his miracles is the Holy Spirit.

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Correct. But you're describing the nature of that key as something very explicit when you say he doesn't do his miracles as God. He does them as a man filled with the Spirit. Therefore, you, as a man who is not God filled with the Spirit, can do all the same miracles in the same ways as Jesus.

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I don't think Scripture teaches that in any clear fashion.

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I think the way in fact, it teaches is a little bit different. Um, the nature of Jesus is he is the Son of man. He's Lord of the Sabbath. Right. He commands the demons.

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He, Jesus. He doesn't command them in the name of the Spirit. He doesn't command them in the name of the Father, which would seem to be borrowed authority. Instead, he just commands them. And they say, we know who you are, Jesus. But when he sends the disciples out, they don't do it the same as him. They command, uh, the demons in the name of Jesus. So they borrow authority from Jesus. I think that this implies that Jesus has a special, not just any normal human filled with the spirit, but a particular role as he walks on the earth, even as he does his miracles. You can look up the verses and check this out on your own. Um, I think you'll find that it just confirms what I said.

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So nowhere in Scripture do I know of where it suggests Jesus did these things as a man filled with the spirit. Therefore, you can do all the same things.

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There's a number of other problems with this, which is it's tied in with the idea that God expects apostolic miracles to happen from every individual Christian around the world. That's not taught in Scripture. And you might say, oh, there's the greater works passage. Okay, but. But let's now look at how that plays out. The apostles in the book of Acts, the miracles tend to center around them. Now, others pray and miracles happen, but not at the degree that they happen with the apostles. You know, we have a handkerchief, a shadow bringing healing. We don't see this with the others. The apostles are even. It's even called signs of an apostle by Paul. Signs of an apostle, meaning this is not normal amongst normal Christians. We're not expecting normal believers to have the frequency and quality of miracles that Jesus had. Now the church collectively has more miracles than Jesus had in his life. Yes, but individually, we're not, I'm not expecting that. So I don't, I don't have that view and I think that that teaching is, um, is incorrect personally. So Megby, I hope that you find that helpful in some degree. I could talk a lot more about that, but yeah. Number three, Justin Anderson says, in light of God's zeal for his own glory in all the earth, and you give a few scriptures on this, how can Christians be zealous for his glory among the nations, especially those who cannot go?

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So yeah, God is. God's like, he'll say, I'll be glorified in all the earth. And God has a zeal for his own glory. That's true. And I think the trinitarian nature of God helps us understand that because the Father seeks the glory of the Son and the Spirit and they seek each other's glory in a sense. And there's this beautiful thing. Um, at any rate, how can Christians be zealous for God's glory among the nations, especially those who cannot go? Um. Well, I feel like I might be missing the heart of your question here because I feel like my answer might seem a little simplistic. So forgive me if it seems simplistic. I'll just share with you what I'm thinking.

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Prayer, um, for the nations. Prayer for as Jesus says, um, the, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. So prayer that God would send out workers into the harvest, that's something Jesus told us to pray for. Um, you can also support missionaries. You can look for missionaries to support. And um, like Bible Thinker, our ministry, we support lots of missionaries. Whenever we have surplus of funds, we donate to the spreading of the Gospel. And that's um, I mean that's not my money. This is the ministry's money. It's your guys donations. The ones who do donate. I'm not asking you to please, um, enjoy this content absolutely free with no, no feeling of obligation to ever donate. That's my request to you. Um, but what we have, when we have surplus, yeah, we end up supporting other missions and things like that as well. I think that's one way. Supporting missionaries and mission organizations, it's tough to find ones you trust to be honest. But um, but it's worth the work to do that. And um, if you can't go, you, you can assist in other ways. Um, just evangelism through outreach online is another way to do you know people. Someone in South Africa is watching this video today. You know, somebody in China is why I met, I met some Guys at the church who came to Grace TV Free came to our church. And he's from China. Him and his friends were from China. And they were in town for whatever reason, and they were telling me they watched my content, and I was like, oh, you can watch this in China. I'm surprised. He goes, oh, yeah, well, we just use VPNs.

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That was great. Um, but, you know, this is international outreach. This is God's glory throughout the world is being online now. You can do this on social media. You can do this posting comments and replies. That's how I started doing online outreach, was just commenting and talking with people one at a time. So those are various ways you can do that. Be zealous for God's glory among the nations. I'm sure there's other ways as well. Let's go to the next one. Number four. We, uh, got all the ten questions. Obviously, at this point. We've had them for quite a while. Grape Creek youth says, is there a biblical basis for songs about crossing the river into heaven, or is it just Greek mythology? Is the Jordan River a legit biblical metaphor for dying and going to the promised land? Heaven? Wow, that's a deep and interesting question. I am not familiar with Greek mythology relating to crossing a river. Unless you're thinking, like, the river sticks and there's like, this boat that carries you across the river. Maybe that's what you're meaning. Um, and you're going into the underworld. Right? That would be the terminology there. Um, I wouldn't worry too much about Christians singing about crossing a river metaphorically going to heaven. So there's. Let me start by saying this.

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Similarities to pagan ideas are unavoidable because ideas are sometimes similar.

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Um, borrowing from pagan ideas is avoidable. We don't want to borrow from their ideas where we're adopting perhaps some of their worldview and some of their concepts. I don't want to borrow from their worldview in any way. But knowing that rivers are something that cultures all around the world have always found interesting and talked about and used in various ways, even metaphorically. It's not surprising to see pagans using rivers to refer to going to the underworld, and then Christians singing about crossing a river as a reference to going to heaven, I wouldn't make that borrowing. I would just say, yeah, there's some similarities here. God uses mountains to speak at the mountain of the Lord and things like this. And yet we have Mount Olympus. I don't think that's borrowing in any way. I think there's just Some similarities there because we're all looking around the world, um, drawing from the same things to make our pictures and analogies. And, and that's normal. That's fine.

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In the scripture, the Jordan river crossing the Jordan is when they're finally going into the promised land. It's been years they've been waiting on this. 40 years in the wilderness, and they finally get into the promised land. The promised land itself definitely connects to the idea of heaven, of entering into that final rest. Um, in the Old Testament, it's described as entering into God's rest. And in the New Testament, the rest that Hebrews talks about this, there's a rest, metaphorically, that's still coming. And that rest is our eternal rest in God's kingdom. So entering into the rest, entering into that does, based on scripture, does symbolically connect to heaven. Crossing the Jordan is a natural, uh, outgrowth of that. To use the Jordan river as a symbolism of drawing into heaven. I think that that's very natural. I think it's entirely appropriate. And a similarity with, with paganism is not something that would concern me at all because I do have a biblical foundation for that. Yeah.

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Yeah. Um, I guess that answers the question. Yeah. I hope that you find that useful. Don't worry too much about that. For instance, I'll give you another example. Christmas M is coming every year around Christmas time. You hear, you hear that Christmas trees are pagan. I used to believe that too, because I heard it and I just assumed it was true. Asherah poles, and you're bowing before it. Oh, okay. And then, um, I did a little more work on it and found out. Yeah. There were times where they would say Jeremiah 10, cut down a tree and decorate it. Um, that was not a Christmas tree, though. Not even close. They were cutting down a tree, carving it into an idol and decorating it and worshiping an idol. Whereas a Christmas tree is an entirely different thing. But there's similarities. Chopping down trees, decorating. Yeah. And then you're offering to your idol and then you're putting gifts under the tree, and that's idolatry. This is the most surface level, kind of like parallelomania that you can get. Christmas trees and idols are not the same in any way, shape or form. Now, maybe you personally listening, you feel strongly convicted against Christmas trees, then don't use them.

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But if you're going to accuse your brothers and sisters in Christ of idolatry because they brought a fir tree into their house and they put some bells and tinsel on it and lights, you are in sin, like, you have to stop. You can't do this. You're divisive and you're causing problems. You have to stop. You don't want to do it, don't do it.

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There's plenty of issues with Christmas materialism. Um, simply ignoring Jesus Christ, simply taking what was, what should be something done to commemorate Christ and to honor the Lord and to celebrate him and turning into, um, let's all just, let's all just get drunk. Yeah, that, that stuff goes on. That's a problem. But, um, but not the trees. All right, sorry, I went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but number five, Tim Cobb. Tim Cobb. And I can see by losing viewers that I offended people. I get you're offended. I tell you what, guys, before I move on, I have a video on Jeremiah 10 where I go through it verse by verse to show that it's not about Christmas trees. I'm perfectly willing to ditch Christmas trees. I really don't care. I care about scripture. It's being abused here. I will link the video down below as soon as the stream is over and then you can unsubscribe. Okay, let's go to the next one. Number five. Tim Cobb says, since all is God's creation, will God hold us blameworthy for killing insects and other critters like cockroaches, mosquitoes, bees, spiders, mice, etc. Um, no.

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So there's specific permission in scripture to kill and eat animals. Specific where we're explicitly told that we're allowed to do that. You know, look at Genesis after the flood. Specifically told, yep, go ahead and do this. Um, not only that, but we have specific commands to kill animals. In the Old Testament where God says, slaughter the lamb, put the blood on the doorposts, there's various sacrifices that the Jews would do on a regular basis. Calls the, the cooking of the meat a sweet smelling aroma. Now, I know there are many who are offended by this and many who maybe are vegans, vegetarians. And I respect your conviction, I understand your conviction, but it is not a moral rule that you're actually finding here.

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It is simply okay to humanely slaughter animals and eat them. It's simply a morally okay and permissible and appropriate thing to do. And it's certainly how our biology is designed. And as many vegans find out, it's difficult to survive like that. You have to be very careful. And a lot of people, as much as they want to do it, they can't even continue doing it Scripturally, it's okay. Um, Pragmatically, if you don't kill insects to some degree, then they're going to overrun.

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It's entirely appropriate. Um, I don't think you should feel a tinge of moral guilt. When we boil here, I'll boil cayenne pepper in a pot.

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Um, this is how I'll deal with ants. Find an ant hill on my property. I'll boil cayenne pepper, stir it real good. Don't let that steam get in your face. It's not going to be pleasant. And then pour it onto the hill and it invades the hill and it actually kind of like makes it so they can't just rebuild the nest right away. And I'm, um, killing a bunch of ants. I should not feel guilty about this whatsoever. I'm not deliberately torturing them. This is just the most efficient and effective way to take care of it quickly.

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Yeah, I know this isn't popular, but when I hit topics like this that I feel are unpopular, I feel like I have to say it even more so because it's not popular. A lot of people won't teach about these topics, won't talk about these issues.

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Um, the consuming of animals, uh, and their humane. And I stress humane treatment, even in slaughter is an okay thing. There's nothing wrong with that. You can eat and thank God for that yummy steak. You can absolutely do that. Now, if you want to talk about, um, in the industry, bad practices. And I think that there's a lot of myths about that, but there's also a lot of truth to that. And it's a lot over my head. I'm not even commenting on that. But, yeah, I don't think so. Um, perfectly fine.

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I think that that's part of what it means for humans to take dominion over the earth.

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When God told Adam and he take dominion over the Earth, it includes the authority to do these things. Now, when it comes to humans, you can't. If you kill a human, they're made in God's image. That's what makes us distinguished from the animals, is we're made in God's image. But again, Proverbs says, a righteous man cares for even the life of his animals. So if you do not care at all for their lives, say, I care for their lives. I just know that it is okay for me to take their lives. I know it sounds harsh, but it seems true. And it is honestly how humanity has literally always lived. So it's not like I'm sharing something new here. It's just new to some people who have always bought packaged food.

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That environment of always buying packaged food has. And then watching cartoons with talking animals, it has changed the way that we view these things and made us unrealistic. So. All right, number six. I feel like it's been nice having subscribers. I'll see you guys in heaven.

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All right, Greg has a question. Can people not yet saved seek after God?

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Um, Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:7 to seek and knock, and it will be opened. But in Romans 3:10, it says there is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks God. Yeah, it is genuinely a little challenging. Romans 3. No one seeks God. And yet Acts Paul says he has placed us in these different locations that we may grope for him and find him.

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Um.

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Uh, so the Calvinist answer to this is going to be nobody seeks God until they're regenerated and then they can't help but seek God. And so regeneration precedes faith as the Calvinist doctrine. So you have faith in God because God saves you.

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Instead of, I sought God and I found him.

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Um, I think that on our own, we do not seek God. And to say that we may seek God, along with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the work of the gospel and the light of the glory of God, we see in creation and stuff like that. Whereas God is triggering this, I may respond by seeking the Lord in some sense, but not in the Roman sense. Not in the Roman sense. In the Roman sense, no one seeks God, as in nobody is holy, nobody is righteous, nobody is just doing the right thing all the time. That's what it's saying. Everybody sins and falls short of God's glory. Nobody is in that category of being right.

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But, uh, is there anybody that seeks the Lord who is not yet born again?

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My, um, opinion, in some sense, yes, but not in the Roman sense. It's not just the word seeks the Lord. It's the meaning of the phrase they don't seek the Lord in this. I'm godly, I'm righteous. But there are those who call out to God, you know, like the story of the prodigal son. He seeks his father. Now, his father has already spent a life showing him his love, showing him his kindness, showing him his grace. And then he seeks his father after he's, you know, eating the pig's food, and he's like, I know it'd be better in my father's house. And it's in his own interest to do so. And so he starts to seek his father and he gets restored.

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The father had a role in the seeking that was going on there. And the Son didn't seek like he was some righteous person. He sought like a sinner seeking salvation. I think in that sense we can. We can respond to what God has done and seek the Lord. Um, there's other scriptures that I would share on this. I'm trying to think of some off the top of my head, and it's escaping me. Um, yeah, I'd have to spend some time digging them up. So I'll let you guys do it in the comments section. You guys can finish my answer for me. Make me look right. Okay. Please.

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Number seven. Billow's pillow says, I find the fact that the resurrection of Lazarus is missing from the Synoptics and the epistles to be unsettling. Do you have any insights on why such a massive claim is not in the earliest texts?

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Um, okay, so you say earliest text because John was likely written last. Um, and then the Synoptics don't carry the story of Lazarus.

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Let me share some things that might help you. Um, and they may not help you. I hope that they do. Billow's pillow.

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So let's talk about why it might unsettle you. Um, what's implied in the this unsettles me is maybe this was made up. Maybe John made it up and it didn't really happen and that's why it's not recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

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That's always in the. In the realm of, like, logical possibilities. That's a positive. That's a logical possibility. Okay. Could there be any other reasons otherwise? I don't think it would unsettle you. Right. Like that. That seems like that would be the only thing about it that would unsettle you, as far as I can say. As far as I can say.

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Um, if that's the case, why is it that the Synoptic gospels do have things like the raising of Jairus daughter?

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Right. Or Matthew's Gospel, which even has the raising of a number of saints upon the resurrection of Jesus, that a number of other saints came out of their tombs.

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I mean, talk about Lazarus, Matthew. Why would Matthew M even think I have to share the Lazarus story? Because he's got this whole thing about the tombs, or they've got Jairus daughter. They've got these various things.

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Maybe they just shared a lot of the same truths about Jesus and his power over death and they didn't feel the need. I'd imagine. To the early Christians, Lazarus resurrection was not as important as Jesus's resurrection, such that the fact of his of Christ's resurrection. It just so overshadows whatever. Whatever he did with Lazarus that it's just not needed. I just don't need to share it. That's quite possible. Um, now if you look at John and you look at the things that John is revealing about Christ, and he does it in different ways than the other apostles, than the other gospels, I should say, then you can see why he would share different stories and he would highlight different things, and you just let him tell his story. Instead of why doesn't Matthew, Mark and Luke include the story of Lazarus? You might ask, why does John include it? And that will give you insight, that will give you understanding into what John is communicating. He's going to show some of the turmoil. One of the reasons for why they finally came to the point of violence against Jesus was, um, Lazarus. So many people were getting saved because of it. But you just have so much. Imagine you're walking with Jesus three and a half years. Let's say it was three and a half. Some say three, three and a half years of walking with Jesus, seeing miracles. You watched him walk on water. You saw him raise the dead, cast out demons. Which of those demon stories do you put in your book? You probably saw it hundreds of times, and you're like, we're going to just have a few. We put in the book because we feel like they illustrate what we're trying to communicate. How many blind people did Jesus heal? But we're going to include this one for this reason.

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They had to be marvelous at cutting things out to write these gospels. They cut out so much stuff and didn't include it. Lazarus was one of those things in the synoptics. Fortunate that John has it. It shouldn't stumble you. The gospels have equally fantastical claims about Jesus. It's not like John elevates it to some new level. He just specifically talks about Lazarus. Why? Could be any number of reasons that contributed to it. Mostly for the message of his book to get across.

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Could also be because of more personal relations between him and Lazarus, between the author and the people he's talking about. Could be that could be the different audiences that they have. Uh, Luke emphasizes other types of things than, say, Matthew. It's about the royalty of Jesus, him being the Messiah character. Lazarus maybe didn't fit in as well with that message. Mark is hiding the identity of Christ within the different things that he does and finally culinates in resurrection. Anyway, I'm just theorizing here, but I don't think it should bother you at all.

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Number eight.

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Anonymous question. Um, hello, Mike. What is the difference between by faith and through Faith in Romans 3? 30. Thank you.

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I don't know. Let's look at it.

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Um, since God is one who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

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Um, okay, I'm gonna. I have studied Romans 3 carefully. I've got a teaching on it on the book of Romans verse. By verse, it's like a year worth of videos. I mean, like year worth of Sunday studies. Um, and you can find that on online. Just type my name in the word Romans. It'll probably pop right up.

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At any rate, which is a phrase I want to stop saying, by the way. At any rate, uh, I hear myself saying. Why do I keep saying that? Um, this passage, I think is just giving variety because the main point of Romans 3 is that we're all being saved the same way. So let me read it to you. Um, and if the emphasis is we're being saved the same way and you're looking for a difference between by faith and through faith, I think you might be missing what he's trying to say. So now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, that would be Jew and Gentile. Right?

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We, uh, can even make it even more clear. For there's no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Right? We're going to be saved through faith. That's the through faith 1. And are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received. And now we have by faith. So there's through faith and by faith, both applied to all Christians. This was to show God's righteousness because in his forbearance he had passed over the former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

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Through faith. By faith. Have faith. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles also? Yes, Gentiles also. Since God is the one who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. He is just giving you a little variety, saying, by faith. Through faith. You can say both, I am saved by faith. I am saved through faith. I'm absolutely saved by both of those things. Well, I'm saved by one of those things, faith. And both of those are ways of describing how that works. Um, ultimately you can be saved by just trusting in Christ. Not by any works that you have done, but by just believing and letting God transform you from the inside out.

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Number nine. Anthony Davidson says, I would like to start investing in rental homes. Is this flat out a sin, and should I just be giving my excess to the needy people? Or is it okay to invest to earn more and just give then?

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Um, yeah, I'm trying to think in my head why it would be sin. Um, what would be sin is taking advantage of poor people. Um, but investing in a rental home is not inherently sinful. Um, Jesus gives parables of landowners as if he was the landowner in the parable.

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Um, the idea with Israel is when they were blessed that they would lend and not borrow. That was when they were blessed. So, like, you're blessed and you can lend and not borrow, but just don't take advantage of people. That's the thing, that's the danger within capitalism is the taking advantage of people does not mean it always happens, but it can. So you have to guard yourself against that.

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I, um, think being a good steward of your money and even being wealthy as a Christian can be a very good thing. But I encourage you to read all of the scriptures related to riches if you're doing really well, and make sure that you really, really digest and take in what it says. Like, study James until you know what it means by let the rich glory in his humiliation.

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Study James until you know what that means. Read commentary, spend time on it. Anthony, that'd be my encouragement to you so that you can be a good steward of these things. What Paul says about the rich, um, it doesn't say they can't be rich. It says, let them be generous and give. That's the idea. Be generous doesn't mean don't be rich. Don't invest, but be generous as well. So, yeah, um, go for it. Invest in rental homes. I mean, follow the leading of the Lord. If you pray about this and you feel like the Lord is really guiding you in some other direction, obviously you have options here.

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Jamie has a question. My pastor says you can tell if a dream is from God by aligning it with God's word, but also if it's very bright, warm, and vivid. He says if you're afraid in the dream that it's not from God. Is this true?

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Well, I don't know where that comes from. Um, I don't think it's true. Um, I'm sorry to say that. Jamie, I don't want to be awkward. You're asking me about what your pastor says. I'm not calling him out in public. Nobody knows who he is. But let's work through this a little bit. Um, there are dreams people have in scripture that are from God. Is there any reason to think that those dreams are bright, warm, and vivid as opposed to being dark, cold, and not vivid? Whatever the antonym of vivid is? Um, I don't. Is I just kind of in my brain scan through passages and stuff and people having dreams? I don't think so. I don't think that any of those things are the case where the color, tone of the dream and the warmness of the dream indicate it's the Lord. What about the last one? Um, if you're afraid in the dream that it's not from God, Um, that is definitely not true. In certain places in scripture, when, um, Pharaoh has his dream about the seven heads of grain and then the other seven eat them, and the seven cows and the other seven skinny cows eat them, he's scared. When Nebuchadnezzar has his dream about the statue that was struck by a stone in the. In the book of David. Um, Daniel. Sorry, Book of David. Uh, he was scared, and he was. Both of these guys, Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were scared enough that they're calling other people and in some cases, even threatening them. Like, you better. You better solve what this dream is about, um, because otherwise I'm going to kill you. They were terrified. Even when messengers of God show up angels, they often tell people right away, like, hey, don't be scared. That's like, their first thing.

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I don't think we have any reason to assume that when God gives us a dream, it's just there won't be any fear related in it. Very well. You might be afraid. I don't see any reason why you would say now. You might say, perfect. Um, love casts out fear. Okay? This isn't a slogan that you put on, like, a bumper sticker and then just like, throw over every aspect of life. This is talking about when you have been made perfect in love and your relationship with God and your knowledge of God, you are no longer afraid of judgment, as in going to hell. That's the thing you don't fear in that verse. It doesn't mean you can never experience fear as a result of something God says to you or reveals to you or shows you.

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Let me give you, uh, my honest assessment. I'm m going to risk this. I hope it's a right risk. My honest assessment of why somebody makes up fake rules about how to tell if a dream is from God. My honest assessment is that there's a lot of people who want to have dreams from God every night, every other night, all the time.

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And because they have just random dreams, they have to have a way of filtering out which ones they'll say are from God and which ones aren't. Now, a lot of people who lean towards fake prophecy, fake miracles, fake word of knowledge, fake word of wisdom.

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When you lean that way, you have to create rules so that you only let people say what's positive come out. I, uh, hope I'm explaining why this happens.

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I've seen this enough, okay? I've seen it. It happens. Like saying, um, in Bethel's ministry, Bill Johnson and Bethel, their ministry, they make a rule. And many charismatics do this. And it's disappointing. It's unbiblical rules that prophecy is always encouraging. This is like a rule that says dreams are always positive. Dreams from God are always bright, warm, vivid, and it wouldn't make you scared. So if someone says, pastor, you said we could all dream. And I had a dream that I got cancer. Like, did it scare you? Yeah. Oh, it wasn't from God. Don't worry about it. Well, I had a dream that, like, I had like a sunny day and was walking around with my friends and he's like, oh, well, it must mean the Holy Spirit is shining upon those friendships. See, because now I can only take the positive and call it from God. Anything negative, we set it aside. When I open up the room to prophecy and I've taught my congregation to accept random thoughts as prophecy, some of them are going to stand up and be like, God, show me that you're in sin. And I want to have a way of stopping that. So I do a social artificial rule. Only positive stuff, Only positive stuff.

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The rule that you can only have positive stuff to me is a red flag that a congregation or gathering has been embracing man sourced prophecy, man sourced dreams and calling it God.

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That's my genuine assessment. And it doesn't mean your pastor is a bad pastor, but maybe he's off on this and you can learn from it. And I have no idea, maybe in every other way. He's a fantastic pastor who honors the word of God and preaches the word of God and speaks truth, but he's got off on this a little bit. It's hard to restore people from this because they're so committed to these dreams they have. They're so in love with this idea that God has been speaking to them in all these ways. And it's been kind of communicated in that culture sometimes that if you don't have God speaking to you, prophesying to you and through you and dreams all the time, then you're actually like, you're not at that high level in your walk with God. You're kind of. You're not as close to Jesus. You know, you're further down. And so the motivation to get up there, even if it's not totally legit and the fault and the fake rules that come around it, and then the sense in my heart that I'm committed to just affirming that all this stuff has been true all along, it becomes almost like if you take away my extra biblical prophecies and my extra biblical dreams, you've taken away my faith in God. And so I think it could be hard for people to disentangle those things.

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Um, but, yeah, Jamie, um, your pastor, I may be wrong, but they may quote verses and try to say something like, that God hasn't given us a spirit of fear or, um, God is not the author of confusion. And so if was the dream confusing? Well, God's not the author of confusion. Like, this is hijacking scriptures out of their context and applying them into, like, dream interpretation in a way that they were never intended to be in Scripture.

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Be gracious to your pastor, but don't be gullible.

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All right, believers, my friends in the Lord, I'm sorry. I've brought up many issues today that have probably ruffled a lot of feathers, and in some ways, um, I'm okay with that. But another way I realize, maybe it's because I'm wrong on something.

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I am just another counselor, another Christian who's communicating things to you, trying to tie them to Scripture. I'm not authoritative and I'm not infallible. And I hope you'll be gracious with me even where we disagree. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.

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Hopefully we can at least keep trying to point to Scripture and establish and ground our beliefs there. That's how I try to answer all these questions as much as I can. So let's Pray, Father, um, thank you for your holy word that does give us clarity and truth. And we pray that you'd help all of us as we work through so many, so many questions about so many things in life. We know Jesus is the answer, but we also have a lot of other questions, and we pray you'd help us to graciously and biblically respond to those questions and to help us have unity as much as possible with other believers in Jesus name. Amen. Quick, uh, announcement.

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No Q and A for the next two Fridays, that is December is the next time. I'll have a Q and A. I'll be at a conference thing. I'm not speaking, but I'll just be out of town next week, and then it's Thanksgiving. M. Um, for that. So that is what's going on for the next two Fridays. I might have some videos popping up here and there. Uh, Zachary Levi, you guys know that is. This is the guy who played, um, Chuck in the TV show Chuck. And then he was, um, the superhero character Shazam.

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Anyways, he made a post about the Bible and about Christianity that I found really interesting on Twitter and incorrect in several ways. But I thought, you know, I think I'll bet he'd be open if I made a video. Maybe he'll see it and maybe it'll help. Anyway, I might do a thing on that. I shouldn't talk about it because I probably won't do it.

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It's one of those things I think about doing. Anyways, we'll see what comes. Um, Lord bless you guys and keep you. Um, check out the Hebrew series if you haven't. We've got, I think, three videos in the series so far. And I'll put the playlist down below if you're interested. Take care.