WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:23.000 In my four hour video on Benny Hinn, I talked about his false repentance. He did it in 1993. He's done it several times through the years, most recently in 2019. Well, he just did it again in 2024. He went on Stephen Strang, his kind of go to guy for softball interviews. He went to Stephen Strang and did a sort of fake repentance video. This was through the outlet of Charisma magazine that they published articles and, uh, promoted Benny Hinn's repentance and are still. 2 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Selling his books on their site. 3 00:00:25.000 --> 00:01:11.000 But they invited me to come on charisma did, of all people, to come on and do an interview. And I was a little skeptical at first. I thought maybe it was a trick, maybe there was traps involved, maybe they were going to do deceptive editing of the interview. But I did the interview, and I also am about to share it with you. My interviewer did a great job. John had integrity. He was a man of his word, and he seemed interested in truth and in honoring Christ. And so I'm very excited to share with you this interview. This is what I shared on Charisma magazine. And the reason why I did this on charisma, not just on my channel, is because I want to reach the people that Benny Hinn is influencing with his fake repentance. While his fake repentance gets pushed by charisma, this video can also be pushed by charisma. I would love nothing more than to see the man really repent. No, like, lasting bitterness would be there. No desire for. For bad things to happen to him. 4 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Is there at all, but to stop. 5 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:17.000 The harm that he is causing to others in the name of Christ. That is something that the church is. 6 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:19.000 I think, called to do. 7 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.000 Here's that interview in full. 8 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:47.000 Charisma Media strives to be a unifying agent in the body of Christ. My guest today is pastor and youtuber Mike Winger. Mike recently published an expose on YouTube titled the Victims of Benny 30 years of deception. The link will be posted in the description below. Benny Hinn recently requested an interview with Stephen Strang on the Strang report to discuss who is the real Benny Hinn. Mike, it's my privilege to have you here on charisma. 9 00:01:47.000 --> 00:02:00.000 Thanks for having me, John. I appreciated you getting your email and getting the chance to talk on charisma about this topic. Since you guys are giving a, uh, space and air to Benny Hinn's, you know, thoughts and the things you wanted to share, I'm excited to get to be part of that. 10 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:34.000 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, charisma. We're trying to bring unity to the body of Christ. We're trying to platform voices the best way that we can as we see God moving. And, um, you know, so, uh, we've looked at your content, and the thing that's really surprised me, and I emailed you about this, is that you are not an anti charismatic heresy hunter, but you are a continuationist, and you do a great job of diving into the word of God and explaining it. So, Mike, I think a great first question for us to ask you is, who is Mike winger? 11 00:02:34.000 --> 00:04:00.000 Um, m I'm a pastor. For many years, you introduced me as a pastor. I'm ordained. I'm still ordained, legally speaking, but I'm not functioning as a pastor in the local church right now. So I don't usually call myself that at the moment, unless you're actually doing it. I kind of, like, think those role titles are important, so I usually don't do that. But, um, many years I've been in ministry since I was like 18, uh, or 19. And I've done youth ministry, young adults, all sorts of things. But at some point, I started just sort of teaching the Bible, answering tough questions about the bible, doing a lot of verse by verse teaching as well, online. Um, and it just kept growing and growing and blowing up. Um, occasionally I will tackle a topic like this thing with Benny Hinn. It's occasional. It's not my typical thing. I rather have, like, a 20 part series on evidence for the bible, giving Christians confidence about the truth of scripture, evangelizing unbelievers with real evidence about real prophecy in scripture, um, teachings through the book of Romans, tackling different understandings of the gospel, all that kind of stuff. Uh, my passion is to help people learn to think biblically about everything. And so I'm always trying to process everything with scripture. And it's not that I have all the answers, but the scripture does have the answers. And so getting people into the word of God, that's my main focus, that's the thrust of it. And doing so in, in the eyes of a watching world who needs to see authentic Christianity, real believers who have real christian values, real christian beliefs, and can defend those things in public. And that stuffs important to me as well. 12 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Yeah. Mike, on your website, you say that you went to Calvary Chapel. Um, and that was part of your education. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 13 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:56.000 Well, I went to the Calvary Chapel school of ministry, which, uh, usually when I say that people think Calvary Chapel Bible College, those are two very different programs. This was like a two year program specifically for racial raising up and training up pastors. Um, it's not an accredited program. There was. The classes were varied. So, like, the Greek was actually really good. The Hebrew was not so great. So my Hebrew is not so great. I have to, like, really rely very much on others for that. Um, so. But that was like a two year, full, uh, time program, you know, where they were just trying to get sort of everything they thought a pastor would usually calvary. Guys, we don't have a lot of money, and we're just sort of jumping into ministry because it's just what we sort of fell into in our lives. And so that program was meant to be like, an inexpensive way to train up pastors with more education and preparation for ministry. So I did that program, and it was fantastic. Yeah, for me, that's really cool. 14 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:01.000 So tell me about your relationship with the Holy Spirit. 15 00:05:01.000 --> 00:06:36.000 Um, well, he indwells me. Um, I believe in, you know, when it comes to say this issue. A lot of people had assumed that I was a cessationist, because I'm being critical of Benny Hinn. And I think there's a fundamental flaw here, that, um, people will unintentionally think that criticism towards a charismatic leader is criticism of the gifts. I believe in prophecy, tongues, all of those things. I think they're something that God has for believers, and I'm eager to have them. I think what scripture tells me about desire to prophesy, I pray for prophetic things to happen and stuff like that, uh, in the church that are genuine and real. But I also affirm scripture when it says, test all things, hold fast to that which is good, that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, that there will never be fakery in the christian church. There will never be gimmickry associated with the Holy Spirit if it's being done in a way that is honoring God. And so I'm zealous for that. I hear the cessationist arguments and I go, I don't think that that's biblical. I don't understand why that's persuasive to people. I think the scripture is just very charismatic in that sense. Um, where I would disagree with some charismatics, though, is, and this is my opinion, but I think that I have reasons for it, is I don't think that we should have, like, this certain expectation of a level of tongues or prophecy or gifts in the church, but rather we should just be open. We should be open to what the Holy Spirit's going to want to do in this season, at this time, in this location, and be receptive to that. If that's more, if that's less, that's, you know, the spirit gives as he wills. It's not like we create an expectation. Everyone speaks in tongues or everyone prophesies. I don't have that expectation, but I'm hopeful. 16 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:44.000 Yeah, I like that. We need to be looking for where the Holy Spirit is moving instead of trying to force the Holy Spirit to move where we want him to. 17 00:06:44.000 --> 00:07:41.000 Yeah. Because the inevitable result is when we feel that we have this super high bar, we have to have this much of what the Spirit's doing that we think is the Spirit, because it's these outward sign gifts, then what happens is, if the Holy Spirit's not actually doing that in the church, the people that fill the gap between that expectation and the reality are fakers. And then it ends up soiling and damaging the reputation of the church. Like Paul says, people are going to think you're crazy, that it does this to the unbelieving world. It becomes confirmation to the skeptic. And I care a lot about the skeptics, about the people who are outside the body of Christ looking in. As we put all our stuff up on social media nowadays, it's so public now. I care about that. And if we have a rule where we will only allow the genuine work of the spirit and not just try and push anything in the name of the spirit, it's going to make us better witnesses, it'll make us more pure church, and it will keep us from fakery. We will be testing all things and holding fast to what is good. 18 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:53.000 Amen. Amen. Mike, I want to ask you about the gospel, and just if you can explain the gospel in your own words and kind of then also lead into how has the word of God impacted Mike winger's life? 19 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:54.000 The gospel. 20 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:54.000 Um. 21 00:07:54.000 --> 00:10:17.000 Wow. I'm always intimidated. Oddly enough, I'm intimidated to talk about in a summary statement of the gospel. I mean, it's about. But there is a God who is perfect in every way, who is all powerful, all knowing is eternal, who created all things. He made us in his image, but he's also morally good. Right? So we're made in his image. We have incredible value, but we do not match his moral standard. We fall short of the glory of God. We all know that we've sinned, but most of us don't realize how big of a deal that is because we think that our standard is like other people and how good we are compared to them. Instead of our standard is this holy, perfect God. So this is why God gives the law to Israel. Part of the reason is to show them, look how big of a deal your sin is. And there's, like, all these commands, they're failing them, and they're realizing, like Paul says, I didn't realize how bad my lust issue was until I read in the commands, like, you shall not lust. And then he goes, well, if that's the standard, I'm toast. Like, I'm going to stand before God and be judged in my sin. We all fall short. We're all doomed. And then enters Jesus Christ. He comes, just like Adam eats of the tree, representing all of us here, sinning against God, taking that which we should not, doing that which we should not, which we're told, not breaking God's moral truth. Then Jesus comes, and he lives the perfect life. He dies on the tree for us in our place, rises from the dead. He's God with us in the flesh. This is like the pinnacle of all of creation, of everything, is this climax of Jesus. And it's God bearing my sin, bearing my sorrow, dying on the cross for my sin, rising from the dead. He didn't have to die. I had to die, and he died for me so that I could just trust in him. And, uh, not only do I get forgiveness as I trust in Christ, as I turn from this life of rebellion against God into yielding to him, but as I trust in him, I get relationship with him. I'm indwelt his holy spirit. God joins himself to me, gives me eternal life in his name. It's the most beautiful, amazing story in the world. Um, the gospel is like the smallest thing and the biggest thing all at once. I don't think I ever do it justice when I talk about the gospel, because it's God saving people through himself, through his own sacrifice and his love, not minimizing our sins, no dealing with them. So that now we stand, either when we die in front of a holy God, to be judged for our sins, or covered by the love and the blood of Jesus Christ and entering into his grace and forgiveness. It's, uh, amazing. 22 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:27.000 So, Mike, you just prefaced your answer, your response to that question with, you feel ill equipped or you feel a little intimidated with that? Uh, you did a beautiful job explaining the gospel. 23 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:31.000 Uh, well, it's better than whatever I just said. 24 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:56.000 That's great. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. I want to dive into your expose on Benny Hinn. This was the big catalyst for us to really connect to. And, uh, so in your four and a half hour expose, you said in the beginning of it that Benny Hinn is evil. I want to ask you the question. Do you think that he is even a Christian? And then why or why not? 25 00:10:56.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Okay. This is a really challenging thing, and I usually don't weigh in on that. I try not to. Um, let me start with this. I did a thing on Joel Osteen. Um, I've done things on some other teachers as well, where I talked about their content to help people learn to think biblically about it. And I was very gracious to them. I was like, I think this person's a believer. I think that in these areas, they're deceived, they're misled, and they're. And they're. We need to be aware of it. Right? So. Because they're influencing so many people. Um, but when it came to Benny Hinn, um, I don't have that confidence at all. And if I had to guess, I mean, God's the judge, so someone might be like, Mike, who are you to judge? Well, I'm not. I'm not actually judging. I'm not sending him anywhere. But if you were to ask me do I think whether the man is really a Christian or not, the layers of deception, the consistency of that deception that goes on, not only things he believes, but things he is actively partaking in, massively deceiving large groups of people. That is so inconsistent with a Christian that it's hard to believe that he really is, um, and maybe by God's grace he is. I hope so. But I don't believe that's the case. I think that he has the marks of a false teacher of the people in one. Peter, where he talks about, like, these destruction is reserved for these guys. You know, Peter didn't. Wasn't worried about saying that. That with these guys who are doing this, they're coming after you with money grubbing and deceitful ways, um, clouds without water, this type of thing. These are not believers in scripture. And Benny Hinn does seem to fit that. You know, the scripture says, you can't serve two masters. You serve God or you serve money. Benny Hinn, you know, you're kind of like Mike. Maybe he serves both. Maybe he does serve two masters here. I wish, I want him to be saved. I want him to be totally covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. But here's the thing. Maybe I'm wrong about that. It changes nothing about how the church needs to react to his ministry, to not only his ministry, but his style of ministry, the way that he manipulates people, the way that he hurts people, the way he takes advantage of and targets the poor. These types of things. The whole church needs to. Needs to recant this kind of thing, because there's a slew of other people that are just binny hens. They're just, uh, the same thing. And whether they're saved or not is ultimately the most important question between them and God. But the church has to get the leaven out of the church. We have to unleaven ourselves in that sense from this sort of. These practices. Um, that's why I did a whole four hour video. It wasn't just about Benny hin. It's about, look, this is something that's going on in the church, especially in Africa. It's amazing how strong it is in Africa. I keep hearing people. Africans reach out to me, and they're saying, in Kenya, in Ghana, in these different places, it's just everywhere. And repeatedly these guys say, yeah, I learned my stuff from Benny Hinn. It's an ongoing, long lasting negative effect in our witness, in the body of Christ. It's just so bad. It's so bad, John. And I'm not the only one who's raised my voice. Guys like Justin Peters or the YouTube channel messed up church. Um, uh, Chris, Roseboro. Other guys have been raising their voices, but because of just the. Maybe because I spend so much time just doing Bible studies that then when I do this, people are like, well, Mike's not the heresy hunter, so maybe they'll listen a little more. And I'm grateful for that. Um, but I just want people to know I'm just the new kid on the block pointing out the same thing others have, and gratefully, it's reached a large number of people. 26 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Yeah. So I want to ask you, what inspired you originally to make this deep dive? I mean, it's 26 pages of notes, and it probably took you a very long time to go through all the clips and to study everything. Tell me about that. Where did this come from? 27 00:14:36.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Well, one of the things I do on my, uh, YouTube channel is every Friday I do a q and a. So I answer questions, and questions, usually think biblically about everything is the basic idea. So one of the questions I had gotten four years ago in 2019 was, Mike, what do you think about Benny Hinn's repentance? And he had on Charisma magazine, and with Stephen Strang, he did a repentance video, and it blew up. It was viral. Everybody was asking about it. If you go look at the archives of my channel, you'll see I didn't talk about it. Everybody asked me about it. I was asked so many times, and I thought, wait and see. So I'm not going to talk. I'm not going to say, oh, this is great. Oh, this is fake. Uh, I thought, let's wait and see. I was hopeful. Well, four years went by, and I didn't. I hadn't talked about it. And at some point, I thought, you know, now is a good time to go ahead and address this issue. People have been asking, and clips have been surfacing, showing that he was doing the same stuff again. Um, very bad stuff. And when I say bad stuff, I don't mean making mistakes. I mean targeting the poor, talking them into giving you their last penny even if they're already in debt. That's his specific instruction. Give all your money even if you're already in debt, and then God will pay off your debts for you. This is the exact same stuff that he in 2019 said grieved the Holy Spirit, and it didn't work, and it hurt people and that he was scared for his soul because he had done it in 2019, he's doing it again now. So I thought, okay, these clips have surfaced. I'll just answer the video. It'll be a short little thing. Part one, question number one of my Friday Q and A, did Benny Hinn really repent? Here's some clips. No, guys, he didn't. You need to be aware of that and not, not promote his ministry and his content. It's going to hurt people. And I did my diligence. Okay, uh, I better look into this a little bit more than just showing a clip. I need to know a little more about it than that. And I just kept finding stuff, John. I just found more and more and more people on stage who were clearly not healed, people who were desperate for healing. The announcer comes on stage and yells out, she's perfectly healed. God healed her today. And she comes and tells Benny, I'm not. I'm hurting. I'm in pain. I'm scared. And he just pulls the microphone away so you don't hear her. Or they dub some fake guy speaking in tongues over that spot in the video. I kid you not. This is the weirdest stuff in the world. This is like deliberate deception. This is really purposeful editing of videos and stuff. That. That's what it looks like to me. Um, anyway, I've shared all that content in my video when I looked at these victims and I thought of the women who were like, maybe a widow going bankrupt and then losing her home, uh, because of Binny hin lying to her about giving and how it works and making promises that God doesn't make, um, or because of, um, I mean, like Paul, you know, he takes offerings for the poor, not from the poor, telling them to give their last penny. Why does he tell corinthians, give? Let's collect money from you guys so we can give it to those who lack instead. Benny targets the ones who lack. This is. This is evil. This is. It makes me mad. 28 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I can tell that's what happened. 29 00:17:28.000 --> 00:18:04.000 I got mad. I saw their faces. I see this woman who's got cancer, and he's pushing her down and hurting her on stage and then putting it on camera. And I'm then looking and there's more and there's more and there's more and there's more and there's false teachings and there's other false prophecies. False prophecies about COVID He tells, nobody, worry about COVID Don't worry about COVID And then later on, um, you know, he predicts that we're not, you know, 5000 maybe, and then it will tamper down. After that. He says, well, that didn't happen. The videos are still up on his YouTube channel with these false prophecies. And then later he comes on and says, well, I make some mistakes. I was not too wise with prophecy. 30 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:09.000 I want to get more of your comments on that in a little bit because I actually have some clips that we're going to show. 31 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:52.000 So the short answer is, I found so much more content and it was so much worse than I thought that I felt that there needed to be a red flag. I guess the last straw for me to make a big video on it was realizing that he has a surge in popularity right now and his influence, especially in Africa, is massive. And I care about my brothers and sisters there. A lot of people think this is about Benny Hinn. It's not. This is about the christians. This is about the non believers watching. This is about everybody but Benny Hinn. Um, Benny Hinn is just the, you know, it's like when you're trying to cure a disease, it's not about the disease. It's about the people that are infected. I'm worried about the people being influenced and hurt and harmed by what Benny Hinn is doing and people who copy him and propagate the same harms. 32 00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:34.000 So I do want to ask you something. You know, sweet. Since Stephen Strang did his interview with Benny Hinn. Um, and you've done yours. The thing that's really interesting about this day and age is with YouTube and Facebook and everything, the comments section is very engaging in a lot of ways. You have people that are against Benny, and they're just saying a lot of the same stuff that you've identified. But then there's also people that seem to come out of the woodwork and support and say that they've had wonderful experiences. They've had, uh, testimonies of healing. What would you say to those people that are all these miracles faked? Or what would you say that they're willing to share their testimonies? They're not coerced to do that, right? 33 00:19:34.000 --> 00:22:12.000 Yeah, I don't disbelieve their testimonies in that regard. Um, and I think the answer is complicated. So what they're maybe thinking is, I went and I got saved at a Benny Hinn event, or I got healed at that event, and they're thinking, therefore it endorses his ministry. That's the mistake that they're making there. Benny, uh, himself has said, I don't heal anybody. God's the healer. In fact, he makes a rule. Before you can get on stage, you have to already get healed on stage. He makes it look like he's doing a healing thing. Uh, he does little sort of showy, showy stuff, but his rule is, you got to get healed before you get on stage. I believe that God does heal people. You have a mass of 50,000 people in a room in a stadium or something, and they're all praying, God, heal. So and so. Heal this, heal this, heal that. What if God answers some of those prayers? But then in the midst of that, Benny hin takes people, makes props to them, fakes that more of them are healed than really are healed, tries to play games with it, makes promises about money that aren't true, bilks the poor, and then walks away with a bunch of money and harm that he has caused, um, with obvious fakery that the world can see right through, even if a lot of believers can't. Sadly, it's weird to say that, because I have more respect for the christians in their worldview than the world in their worldview. But they see it, um, sometimes. Anyway, I talked about this in my video. My four hour video was like, hey, I don't want to take that away from you. You had some benefit. You listened to a Benny Hinn teaching, and it was really good at that. Particular teaching was great. It changed your life. Good. Don't lose that. But here's a thought, Judas. Let's take Judas for a second. Did Judas cast out demons and heal people? He did. I mean, because they went out, the twelve went out, they went two by two, and they came back and said, the demons are subject to us in your name. Jesus sent them casting out demons and healing people. Does that then validate Judas? No, actually, Judas was the one we know for sure was false. Right. And Jesus himself says, there are those who will say to me, lord, Lord, did I not? And it's miracles. It's stuff you see at the Benny hidden events, didn't I do this? Didn't I do that? Didn't I do that in your name? And he says, depart from me. I never knew you. You're a worker of iniquity. This is a biblical case I'm making for just because so and so taught something amazing or a miracle you felt happened in that moment does not validate them and their whole ministry. Jesus didn't think so. The Bible doesn't teach that. That is really what's happening is you came, God worked in your life, and Benny used that to turn your attention towards him, to glorify him instead of ultimately just giving God all the credit. 34 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:18.000 You mentioned Benny Hinn events. Have you ever been to one or would you ever consider going to one? 35 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:46.000 Um, I have not been to one. Um, no. I've watched a lot of footage, a lot of video footage of them. Um, I was thinking about going to one that was coming up in next month, actually here in, uh, local to me, so in Orange county. But, uh, I heard that Benny Hinn is not teaching it. Not going to be there anymore. They've changed his plans. He said he had some international thing he had to do instead. So, yeah, I don't know if they'd even let me in at this point. I think they know who I am now. 36 00:22:46.000 --> 00:23:16.000 You might have to wear a disguise. Uh, you know, Stephen Strang just did an interview with doctor Michael Brown, and you referenced that in your Friday, in your Friday live, which wasn't quite live because everything was going on in your studio there. But I really appreciate the stuff that you talked about that. And you said that you would actually be even open to having a conversation with Benny, but you didn't think nothing would happen with that. Um, what would you talk about with Benny if you had that opportunity? 37 00:23:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000 Um, how would you approach that? I know that I would pray a lot and think a lot before we actually got into that moment. So I don't know that I have the answer off the top of my head, but, um, my goal in a private talk with Benny would be any sort of pastoral kind of counseling moment where you're just trying to talk to someone, ask questions, and sort of get them to come around to be honest and real with the issues they've got going on, so that they can have real restoration, real repentance. Benny Hinn needs to have a real accounting of his finances in his ministry. He would need to be open about the deceptions that he's perpetrated in the name of healing. Um, he'd have to be open about that stuff. It would ruin him. It would ruin his reputation, but it would save his soul, I believe. So. It would be a beautiful, wonderful thing, and I would be the first one lining up to give him a hug and be so happy that he had real repentance going on. So, yeah, uh, I'm not sure exactly how that conversation would go, but I'm also realistic. I've done a lot of counseling. I've talked to a lot of people. So, yeah, I would be hopeful that we could have a moment. But the fact that he, like, tried to get my video taken off the Internet, the fact that he then did this damage control interview where he acts like my video is just about old footage from 2030 years ago, which is not true. That's deceptive to say that, um, the fact that he doesn't actually address the fake healings or the editing practices, putting tongues over somebody so that you can't hear what they're saying when, um, they're saying that they're in pain because it makes you look bad. All of those types of things, um, targeting the poor. He didn't mention any of that in the interview. He's just like, I made mistakes. M the fact that he's doing a deceptive response to what already happened doesn't leave me hopeful that a private conversation would be better. I also know from the footage that I shared in my video that in private, Benny Hin has put on a different hat. He almost becomes whatever person he needs to be in that moment to get that person on his side. So I would be very worried that he's just going to try to manipulate me, to be honest. I'm just being realistic here. Hopeful, but not stupid. 38 00:25:17.000 --> 00:26:02.000 Well, I want the real Mike winger. Uh, I don't want somebody just to give me the answers that you think that I want. I want the real thing. And so I appreciate that you brought up about repentance. And, um, watching the video that you put out on Friday, um, it seems like there's some conditions to repentance, or at least accepting the repentance. How do we as christians deal with that? Because sometimes somebody that has truly repented, nobody believes them. Now, I'm not trying to paint that. I'm just saying, like, this does happen. And then also sometimes people repent and it's fake. How do we as christians discern that? And what would you really accept from Benny specifically? 39 00:26:02.000 --> 00:30:17.000 Um, the first step of repentance, I think, is admitting what has really gone on. So an open admission. So, for instance, if he says, I repent or forgive me, I don't think he used the word repent in the recent video. But if he says, forgive me, and he says, uh, I was not too wise, sometimes I was not too wise with prophecy, that is kind of a red flag, because not too wise with prophecy isn't the same as I've repeatedly throughout the years, including recently falsely prophesied to large numbers of people, and then use those prophecies to try to get money from them. You know, like. So he says, hey, there's a transfer of wealth coming. Peace is coming to Israel. You got to make your donation so that you can get into that transfer. If you give. The message is, if you give money to bin hin, then God's going to bring you a windfall of a whole bunch of money real soon, because the peace is coming. It's all part of my prophecy. Uh, he would have to be open about it, really open about it. Not oopsie. Not that kind of not. Nobody's perfect. Um, if I cheated on my wife and then was like, you know, honey, nobody's perfect. I made mistakes or some things I'm not proud of. Those are minimizing terminologies, right? I would want to see honesty and openness. I'd also want to see him deal with the fact that there's fake healings. I don't think he's ever talked about this. I don't think he's ever repented of this. He said in previous years that he was going to get a doctor to verify the healings. Um, but the way that actually seems to have played out in his actual crusades is there's someone who has a doctoral position. They're a doctor, and they're on the stage, and they just analyze somebody. They're not doing an actual exam. There's no x rays, there's no blood work. There's no real exam going on here, it's just a guy standing there. It'd be like your doctor trying to diagnose you, like, just looking at you. Um, this doesn't work, so. And then he puts people on stage who are clearly not healed. There's a baby with cancer I shared in a video who's clearly not healed. He pretends the baby's healed. Kid with autism, clearly not healed. Benny pretends he's healed. There's a guy who's swollen and he's still got this major problem, immobility and stuff. And Benny just pretends he's healed. Obviously, these are fake. If he's honest, if he starts with honesty, that's step one. Be honest about everything. Be honest about your money. How much money? Where's the money going? And then after the honesty, the next step would be to try to make some kind of restitution. He can't actually fix everything that's been done, but there could be some effort towards restitution. What about taking whatever finances he does have and he donates it to the actual poor, like, not himself. Other ministries who are responsible, who are, like, have accountability within their structures, and he gives it to them and takes care of the poor. How about he comes out and he exposes what's actually wrong with this false theology? He names names of other people that are ongoingly doing these things, and he calls them to repentance, too. Says, join me here. Just basically, if you were Benny Hinn and you were really repentant, what would you be saying? The repentance that's a red flag to me is when it does two things. One, it minimizes the issues, or even denies and ignores many of the issues. He did that. And two, it seeks to hold on to power. And that's definitely what Binnyhan is trying to do. This is about restoring his reputation. This is why his interview with Stephen Strang starts with, like, tell us about your heart. And he just starts boasting about, I just love God so much. And it's the veneer of humility, but it's all about image. Um. Um. When I'm repenting of sin, and I. I've seen. I've seen leaders do this in ministry, too. I've seen a leader who committed adultery and they brought him on stage to tell the congregation he'd been caught for and called out. Right? And he then lectured the congregation about their relationships and not slipping and not messing up. He lectured them. He's the he and then he's. He just goes into teaching mode. Let me fix all your problems, guys. Yes, I made some mistakes, and now I'm going to teach you how to not avoid. How to avoid what I did. That is a sign of someone who's not the picture Jesus gave of repentance, right? Beating his chest, stood afar off, said, lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. There's repentance. There's a real repentance. This is not that. This is manipulation. And so that makes it even worse, because it's like, it'd be worse if it'd be better if he just didn't repent. It was like, ah, uh, do what I want. I respect that more. This is worse. It's fake repentance. That it's just more manipulation is what it looks like. 40 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:31.000 Well, I don't want to get you too route up here, but I actually have these. I actually have a couple clips that I want to, uh, play for you and then get your response. I've got two clips. So, um, here's the. Here's the first one. 41 00:30:31.000 --> 00:31:03.000 I came to the conclusion in 2019 that I did not want to be a part of the gimmickry of it. But sadly, I let pressure get to me. And, uh, because of that pressure, I said things and did things I should not have done. And for that, really, I am sorry. And I ask the dear people watching us to really forgive me for that. And I'm striving with all my heart to be as biblical as possible with that. 42 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:17.000 Now, uh, just in full disclosure there, I did just cut out some of the pauses there. I'm not editing it to make it say anything that he didn't say. Uh, but I just want to get your response to that. I mean, he looks at the heck, he looks to the camera and does ask for forgiveness. 43 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:18.000 Yeah, yeah. 44 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.000 But you don't believe him. 45 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:41.000 So, John, let me ask you, what did he repent of specifically? Right there. Specifically. Can you think of it specifically? Yeah, I'm not sure. It's almost like you have to fill in the blanks yourself. The only word he used there that was kind of specific was the word gimmickry. 46 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000 Right? 47 00:31:42.000 --> 00:33:21.000 So then I got to go. Oh, gimmickry. So maybe whatever I think of as gimmickry in prosperity gospel, that's what he repented of. But even this week on his YouTube channel, he's telling people that if they give money to his ministry, God will give them much more money in return. And he even uses the word sacrificial giving. And that's what makes it a seed. And then the seed grows, and then God gives them even more money back. That's gimmickry. That's not biblical. That's not how it works. Um, we do trust God to provide for us. So there's a biblical idea of God taking care of us, of us honoring God with our finances and all that. That's all true. But the teaching that if you give sacrifice. So I'm hurting financially, and I take, let's, uh, say I owe 50,000 in debt, but I take the 10,000 I have in the bank and I just give it all to Benny Hinn. I know that God will give me even more in return, but actually, instead I lose my house because that's not what scripture tells us. And so giving to get is what he teaches. Still, that, to me, that's gimmickry, but not to Benehan. When he says gimmickry. I don't know what he even means by that. This is what I mean by a vague repentance. Um, maybe what he means by gimmickry is, I won't use the phrase thousand dollars. Yeah, but, well, what, what good is that? Like, that's nice, but that's, uh, a band aid. On the issue, um, the idea of giving sacrificially is not to get in return, but is because it's more blessed to give than to receive. But rather, he says, give to receive. See how the teaching is twisted? Yeah. 48 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:48.000 Yeah. So, malachi, three, six and ten, that area right there, that gets used a lot, especially in churches and taking offerings. Um, test me in this, says the Lord almighty, and see if I will not pour open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room for it. Um, so that verse gets used. So what is the proper interpretation of that when it comes to giving? 49 00:33:48.000 --> 00:36:51.000 Um, I think that we have to recognize that that's actually written to Israel, who's under the law, who's been told to give a specific amount. They're not even be told. They're not even being told to offer sacrificially. They're just being told to fulfill the tithe requirements that God's given them. So they're not doing something above and beyond. They've been holding back their tithes, you know? Will a man rob God? Well, God had told Israel, you give me the tithes. He also had given them a land, and he said it was, and it was promised prosperity, okay? That was Israel. These prosperity preachers will always hijack two thirds. No, not even that. Maybe one third of what God says to Israel, and they'll apply it to the church, they'll ignore the rest so that, you know, you don't have to travel to Jerusalem three times a year, but you do have to give this amount of money, and then God's going to bless you abundantly. What happens in Malachi is Israel is going through this. We're not going to give to God, we're not going to give the land its, um, Sabbath year rest. We're not going to give the tithe to God. We're not going to honor God. And because they're breaking the covenant with God, they're suffering financially, they're suffering health wise, they're suffering militarily, all those things. And he's like, if you just honor me and do what I tell you to do, I'm going to do my part of the deal. But to the christian church, we're not given those rules. We're not given those things. Tithing is not a demand in the New Testament. We are told to take care of and help the, uh, poor. We're also told to take care of and provide financially for those who are doing ministry, specifically your local pastors, the people who travel around and stuff, they have to be tested carefully. Even from the very moments of the early church, traveling preachers were an issue, and it was a concern that didicate talks about it in 100 AD. They're like, hey, watch out. If they come and traveling and they're asking for money, and they're not actually relationally part of your church, you got to be careful about that. Um, but the command in the New Testament seems to be a little different. Yeah, you take care of, but what Paul does is he takes offerings from those who have wealth, and he takes it and gives it to the poor. That's not what Benny Hinn does, right? There's no command of a tithe the New Testament does not get. In fact, it prepares us for poverty. It prepares us to be poor. It tells us who are poor not to worry about it. It tells those who are rich not to take pride in it, but to be humbled, knowing that their ultimate riches are in heaven. Paul talks about, I know how to be abased, I know how to abound. The christian church is m going to be a diverse group with poor and rich all existing at the same time, always. We don't have this promise of prosperity like that. It's just not the case. So I don't know if maybe I've rambled a bit there, but if I answered your question, John. Um, the malachi passage is about Israel at a specific time to hijack it and then turn it into prosperity. Teaching, which many people do, is incorrect. Even the 10% amount claiming that that goes to your local church and has to go, there's no biblical basis for that. Giving to your church does matter. Right? But the 10% amount, the ratios, instead, it's give as you may prosper not by compulsion, but willingly. And we should not be giving to get. We should be giving to give. That's why we give. We give to give. That's the whole point. Yeah. 50 00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:02.000 Yeah. Well, the other clip that I have for you that I want to get your. Your take on is. Is this one here about prophecy again, I edited that. Uh, I edited it down just to take all the pauses. 51 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:43.000 I'm a human being. I've made mistakes. We, ah, all make mistakes. The two things I regret most in ministry, I was not too wise with prophecy. There were times when I thought God had showed me something that he wasn't showing me. And I spoke it out, and sadly, and I wish I can go back and fix it, but sadly, there were some promises I gave that were not accurate or from the Lord. But who's perfect? And for that, of course, I asked people to forgive me. I'm just human, uh, and made mistakes like that. And I'll probably make them m again, I suppose, down, down the road, because I'm not perfect. 52 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000 All right, Mike, what's your response to that? 53 00:37:47.000 --> 00:41:28.000 Um, what's interesting is if you actually played this and combined it with his 2019 videos, you'll see it's a very different kind of repentance. Before. He's like, I'm worried about my soul. Never again. It grieves the Holy Spirit. The stuff I've been doing, it's so bad, it's so wrong. And now he's just like, yeah, I made mistakes. I'll probably do it again. That's all you need to know. Um, when it comes to prophecy, there's a few things that Benny Hinn says. He says it's a mistake. Does the Bible ever teach false prophecy as simply a mistake? No, it really doesn't. Some charismatics do, some don't. There's actually a lot of charismatics that are more like me that go, it's not okay. If you false prophesy, that is definitely not okay. That is not allowable. Something's very wrong if you go, God told me, and you say something God didn't tell you. There's something very concerning about that. And we're not going to stone you, but we're also not going to trust when you say, God told me something. Um, when Benny Hinn has done it, though, it hasn't just been in the past. Gosh, there's, like, a list of issues, I'd say, with this clip. One, this stuff's not in the past, it's also in the present. It's consistent throughout his ministry. He's just been doing it. It just happened over the last few months. Even so, it's not nothing new. And it's almost like he realized after 2019, I just can't keep it straight. I'm just going to keep doing this. So he's like, yeah, just forgive me. I just want to have a constant blanket of forgiveness as I continue to do the same stuff wrong. Okay? That's how it sounds to me, at least when it comes to saying, um, you know, we prophesy in part. First corinthians 13, just basic English. Like, it says prophesy in part. It doesn't say we prophesy falsely. It just means, I know this much. But what you know, if it's from God, that much is true. You just don't know all the other stuff. I prophesy in part, but you don't prophesy falsely. That verse cannot be used to justify falsely prophesying. Everything about that is just wild to me. Um, the basic idea is to minimize, to minimize his issues. He doesn't mention a single false prophecy. He did prophesy. This is how it came off in his videos, that Israel was going to have peace and that people should give quickly give him. There's going to be tons of people getting saved and amazing healings, and people should quickly give their money to his ministry so they could get in on the landfall of money that would come their way. He prophesied this just over the last few months, but then, like a week or two ago on his YouTube channel, he says, I never prophesied. That wasn't a prophecy. That was just what Benjamin Netanyahu said. But the video footage is there. It was more than that. Like what, what he's doing here seems more like damage control. You know? Uh, I'm just gonna vaguely say I made mistakes in the past. I wish people wouldn't hold it against me, but it's ongoing, it's current, there's denial along with it. Everything bad about it that I can see in this repentance. Repentance would look like this. Guys, I have spoken in God's name so many times. And I was wrong. I will never do that again. I will never speak in God's name again. You can't. Trust me. We're going to take down my videos. We're going to end this ministry. That would be, um, a sober and mature and right way to respond. And, uh, I'd be very gracious and loving and happy to hear him say things like that. But this is not. This is not real. This is fake. And to be honest, John, I hope I don't get you in trouble for saying this. This is on me. But Stephen Strang has been his go to guy for years for this stuff, it seems. I would imagine. They sent the questions in there, such softball questions. And he even at one point asked him, would you clarify on that? And he didn't even clarify. Just. There's no clarity. There's just. Guys, can we just get back to business as usual, please? I'm kind of annoyed. I couldn't get Mike Winger's video down, and everybody keeps talking about it. Can we just get back to business as usual? That's how it sounds. 54 00:41:28.000 --> 00:42:12.000 Yeah, I definitely wish that we would have been able to get more out of him in that. Uh, but, you know, Mike, the video that you posted on Friday, you brought up a great verse. And I'm going to ask you some more clarity on this or more wisdom on this. You quoted Matthew 1016 to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Um, you know, especially when it comes to discernment. How do we as christians walk that line? How do we, you know, not be. How, uh, do we be, uh, not vicious like serpents, you know, because they're supposed to be wise as serpents, but not vicious or cunning or, you know, or constricting. And how do we be not be innocent as doves, but not be taken advantage of? Help us with that. 55 00:42:12.000 --> 00:44:43.000 Um, wisdom is, you know, read the book of proverbs, right? Wisdom is a very large thing. It affects everything we do in different ways. Some of the ways in which we can apply wisdom is dealing with planks in our own eyes. So me evaluating myself and going, am I being unfair? Am I. Am I. Am I being overly, uh, critical? Which is entirely possible. Um, I don't think I am. I think I'm accurate here, but I need to at least go through that process where I'm very honest with myself and I'm like, okay, I know I'm emotionally upset as I see the faces of people being hurt by Benny Hinnom, but I need to make sure that I don't overreact. I don't. In my anger, sin, as ephesians says. So part of being wise is not sinning. In your own anger, realizing your own temptation, Jesus says, get the plank out of your eye. That, of course, is true. Another thing is also to realize that dealing with false teachings and false teachers, it's about the body of Christ and the people of Christ. This is why when the warnings in the New Testament go out about these false teachers, about false prophets and all this kind of thing, it's about protecting the body of Christ so that it's not a desire to tear down Benny Hinn, it's a desire to bring purity and health and goodness to the body of Christ and to our witness to the world. That's the idea. Um, I think that there's wisdom in that. There's wisdom in realizing that this isn't about let's take that guy down. No, it's about let's build this church up. And you can't do this. When you have, in the leadership positions of so many churches, you have these kinds of deceptive, selfish, money grubbing practices, deceitful miracles. The Benny Hinn spawns other people doing the same kind of thing where they'll bring the wheelchairs out, put it on stage, they'll have people who aren't really healed, pretending they're healed, him pretending they're healed, creating desperation in people for healing and manipulating that to control them on stage and do like, this is something he's never repented of, uh, to my knowledge, ever even acknowledge. There are people right now who are trying to tell themselves, no, I'm healed. Benny said I was healed. They brought me on stage, they said I was healed, and they're not healed. And they're just struggling with how to deal with the theology they've been given by guys like Benny Hinn and the practices and the treatment they were given on stage to then now walk away and go, but it wasn't real. But they do believe in God. They believe in Jesus. Like, my heart breaks for those people. I think that wisdom is realizing that our goal is helping people, not just, say, taking down a ministry. I don't want to take that. It's sad. The whole thing's very sad. But the body needs to be protected. 56 00:44:43.000 --> 00:45:19.000 Yeah, the body needs to be protected. And, uh, pointing out these things, uh, that you found, it's really important whether somebody is for Benny Hinn or not. Um, these issues need to be addressed. You know, it's, uh, but Mike, as we're wrapping up here. I'm going to ask you to do, uh. I'm going to ask you to let us. I want to thank you and then ask you to give the last word here. And then if you could close us in prayer for the people that are watching this, and if you feel led, pray for Benny himself. 57 00:45:19.000 --> 00:48:36.000 I'd be happy to. Um, last word on this is, when Christ comes, all of us are going to be judged. All of our ministries are going to be judged, and there's going to be a lot of things that maybe we've done that get burned up in the flames, but we'll make it through if we're truly in Christ. That's my hope for all of us, is that we're truly in Christ. But here's the thing. If we prop up fake stuff in the name of God, it's going to have harms that we can't even conceive of. There are full churches out there. Let's set aside bidding for a second to say there's full churches out there who their whole ministry is built around the propping up of the man of God through fakery, through exaggerating things, through conditioning, uh, the audience, and controlling who does what, and certain music in certain ways. This sort of thing is not honoring to Christ, no matter how much it works in the sense of a movement, the long term result will be the flaming of all of that wood, hay and stubble at the altar of Christ. It's just going to burn. And those ministers who may be watching, you're in ministry. You're preparing to go into ministry. Renounce all of the fakes, all of that stuff. I don't care how little of the work of the spirit you think you're going to really see, as long as it's real, as long as it's the true work of God's Holy spirit, then there's ground where God can actually do something amazing. But if we will demand real Bible teaching and demand real, authentic pastors and leaders who have accountability, who have godly character, who aren't money growers, and who don't drive the nicest car in the church, if we demand those things, then we're going to see a building up of the body of Christ and a greater witness to the world. It's going to be a wonderful thing. And so I really hope that those who watched his video won't let Benny Hinn, um, manipulate them with their desire for. To see forgiveness and restoration into fake forgiveness and restoration. Just like he's driven people to fake miracles, fake healings, fake promises about money, all that kind of thing, it's just more of the same. But I'd like to appreciate the opportunity. Um, Father, we are, uh, grateful for the opportunity to talk about this stuff. And we pray for those who are influenced by Benny Hinn. There are those who are hurt right now. Um, there are those who are bitter towards God and towards churches and towards Christianity because they know of a loved one who gave their last penny to Benny and ended up poor and destitute. They know of people, um, who walked in deception and lived in deception, um, because of ministries that were not genuine or real, or at least fully genuine. We pray for them that they would be restored, that they would be brought into the truth of Christ. And we pray for ministers watching who you've practiced, some of the Benny Hinn stuff. We pray that those ministers would purge themselves of all the leaven, would have genuine repentance before their own congregations and accountability to their own fellow leaders and fellow servants. We pray that they would be restored and that it would be a purifying effect for the body. And we lift up Benny and we pray, Lord, open his eyes to see how you truly see him and his ministry in every way so that he might have real grace and forgiveness and restoration. We pray that we would see true and genuine repentance and that we could rejoice in the grace of God to cover everything he's ever done. In Jesus name. Amen. 58 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.000 Amen. Mike Winger, thank you for joining me here on charisma. 59 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Thanks for having me, John.